I'm not sure how much of a difference the G.55 would have made once the US entered the war, even in larger numbers. If you read day-to-day accounts, prior to the US entry into the war the RA reported flights of 6-8 aircraft being intercepted. In 1942 when the US showed-up this number climbed to 40-60 aircraft at a time. And these weren't inferior aircraft but P-38s, P40s, Marauders, Bostons, B24s, P-51s etc with well trained crews. If you're interested in the Italian 8th army exploits on the Eastern Front, you should read the "Regio Esercito: the Italian Royal Army in Mussolini's Wars, 1935-1943" by Patrick Cloutier (the best account) or Lee Ready's "Avanti: Mussolini and the Wars of Italy 1919 - 1945". Ciano warned about an alliance with Japan, that it brought little to the table and indeed contributed virtually nothing to Italy's (and Germany's) prospects of winning WWII, except for bringing the US into the conflict and helping nothing wrt the Soviet Union. Once the US entered the war it was game over, and that Mussolini and Hitler didn't see or understand this is astonishing. I think even tackling the USSR was too much.
_________________ Vince Tassone
Retired In Kalifornia
Generale di Divisone Aerea
Joined: 07 Mar 2018
Posts: 533
Location: Cameron Park, California
Posted: Tue Sep 18, 2018 8:11 pm
Editor wrote:
I'm not sure how much of a difference the G.55 would have made once the US entered the war, even in larger numbers. If you read day-to-day accounts, prior to the US entry into the war the RA reported flights of 6-8 aircraft being intercepted. In 1942 when the US showed-up this number climbed to 40-60 aircraft at a time. And these weren't inferior aircraft but P-38, P40s, Marauders, Bostons, B24s, P-51s etc with well trained crews. If you're interested in the Italian 8th army exploits on the Eastern Front, you should read the "Regio Esercito: the Italian Royal Army in Mussolini's Wars, 1935-1943" by Patrick Cloutier (the best account) or Lee Ready's "Avanti: Mussolini and the Wars of Italy 1919 - 1945". Ciano warned about an alliance with Japan, that it brought little to the table and indeed contributed virtually nothing to Italy's (and Germany's) prospects of winning WWII, except for bringing the US into the conflict and helping nothing wrt the Soviet Union. Once the US entered the war it was game over, and that Mussolini and Hitler didn't see or understand this is astonishing. I think even tackling the USSR was too much.
As I'd said above, if Mussolini had given top priority mass-producing cannon-armed DB 605-powered FIAT G.55 before the Afrika Korps capitulation in 1943 Italy might had stood a chance thwarting concentrated Allied air raids later that year. Even in "larger numbers," i.e. double or more than the 274 wartime manufactured, there absolutely wouldn't be enough G.55s to stop Allied bombing, thwart possibly but not long and then not over all of Italy. The Germans surely would had impressed as many of them possible after Italy capitulated, whether they'd be significant in conducting post-Armistice air defense operations over the country remains wholly speculative.
I should read Patrick Cloutier's & Lee Ready's historical accounts; the Regia Aeronautica Italia's operations in Russia well as the Corpo Aero Italiano are well documented the latter of particular interest to me since the mid-1960s, interesting as well so many theatre aircraft camo schemes have been in print since then.
Hitler was mad, invading Russia was proof of that, Mussolini was madder militarily contributing to it. He - Musso - should had listened to Pietro Badoglio, Domenico Cavagnari, Giuseppe Valle in September 1939, not entered WWII; he might had survived it if stayed "neutral but friendly" to Germany then the Allies ala Franco & İsmet İnönü Mustafa İsmet İnönü - another historical "What IF" here...
Editor
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Joined: 24 Jul 2003
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Location: Calgary, AB, CANADA
Posted: Tue Sep 18, 2018 8:38 pm
Hitler betrayed Mussolini, he made proclamations of peace (even to Italy) but was planning for war at the earliest possible time (Ciano's diary lays all this out, it should be required reading for WWII historians). Hitler saw a resurgent Italy as a competitor, though an ally, and was fully aware Italy needed at least 3-4 yrs to rearm and get its finances back into order after two major wars, and that the Allies were in the middle of rearmament and what seemed like a weakened USSR (Soviet-Finnish war 1940) he struck in 1939, and not according to the Pact of Steel which stipulated 1943. Mussolini believed the Allies could not fully rearm even by 1943 because of internal turmoil and hence 1943 seemed like a good time to attack together with Germany and win. Yes Mussolini's generals said no to war in 1939 and Mussolini listened, but when Hitler looked like he was running away with victory, Mussolini jumped in with the Germans urging him on btw (Goring, Ribbentrop, Hitler etc). btw Hitler tried to seek a truce with the USSR in 1943, without having told his allies. And the Fascists did not see the US as an enemy - in fact there was strong support in the US for Germany and Italy - which makes it even more incredible that they honored their agreement with Japan and declared war on the US together with Germany. I'll write a book review of Ciano's diaries, absolutely fascinating.
_________________ Vince Tassone
Retired In Kalifornia
Generale di Divisone Aerea
Joined: 07 Mar 2018
Posts: 533
Location: Cameron Park, California
Posted: Tue Sep 18, 2018 9:48 pm
Editor wrote:
Hitler betrayed Mussolini, he made proclamations of peace (even to Italy) but was planning for war at the earliest possible time (Ciano's diary lays all this out, it should be required reading for WWII historians). Hitler saw a resurgent Italy as a competitor, though an ally, and was fully aware Italy needed at least 3-4 yrs to rearm and get its finances back into order after two major wars, and that the Allies were in the middle of rearmament and what seemed like a weakened USSR (Soviet-Finnish war 1940) he struck in 1939, and not according to the Pact of Steel which stipulated 1943. Mussolini believed the Allies could not fully rearm even by 1943 because of internal turmoil and hence 1943 seemed like a good time to attack together with Germany and win. Yes Mussolini's generals said no to war in 1939 and Mussolini listened, but when Hitler looked like he was running away with victory, Mussolini jumped in with the Germans urging him on btw (Goring, Ribbentrop, Hitler etc). btw Hitler tried to seek a truce with the USSR in 1943, without having told his allies. And the Fascists did not see the US as an enemy - in fact there was strong support in the US for Germany and Italy - which makes it even more incredible that they honored their agreement with Japan and declared war on the US together with Germany. I'll write a book review of Ciano's diaries, absolutely fascinating.
Need to read the Ciano diaries well as "What IFs" on Italy not participating in WWII. Regia Aeronautica Italia aircraft sporting pre-WWII Tri-Color tails certainly along with "neutrality" markings, may consider building a "What IF" C.200 or G.50 with them.
Vincent Fiore
Generale di Brigata Aerea
Joined: 25 Jun 2009
Posts: 167
Location: USA
Posted: Wed Sep 19, 2018 3:13 am
Why dod hitler have Ciano killed?
Editor
Site Admin
Joined: 24 Jul 2003
Posts: 2041
Location: Calgary, AB, CANADA
Posted: Wed Sep 19, 2018 7:39 am
Ciano turned against the Axis alliance as early as mid-1939 when he learnt that Germany was moving quickly toward war (in breach of the Pact of Steel) and worked hard to keep Italy out of war – it’s all in his diaries. Btw the Italians were firmly against an attack on Poland; Poland was viewed as a friendly, and then the atrocities committed on the Poles soon after its occupation heightened Cianos’ view that a war should not be prosecuted with the Germans as allies. Ciano also didn’t trust the Germans based on other intelligence. In fact the Germans were undermining the Italians at every turn, even in Greece, disseminating anti-Italian propaganda (it was quiet unbelievable how treacherous the Germans were) as well as trying to destabilize Italian alliances with Croatia and Hungary. The Italians were “allies” to the Germans only to the extent that they could help the Germans achieve their goals. What is unclear was how much of this activity was approved by Hitler himself - presumably all of it? Ribbentrop orchestrated Ciano’s execution, and Mussolini “oked” it. Ciano along with other Fascists voted to remove Mussolini from power in July 1943 and this was the basis for Ciano’s execution. Interestingly, Ribbentrop was captured by the Allies and then tried at the Nuremberg trials and hung. Ribbentrop claimed he had no knowledge of Hitler’s desire for war and believed Hitler wanted peace (i.e., he was fooled by Hitler), however Ciano’s diaries (as well as other documents), which were used as the basis for Ribbentrop’s convictions, showed clearly he was one of the worst of the lot, a warmonger (“unstable”) and a murderer. So in an interesting twist of fate, Ciano got his revenge on Ribbentrop who conspired to have Ciano killed. Ribbentrop and Ciano were counter-parts to each other, both were foreign ministers. This is why authors such as Sadkovich, Ready, Cloutier, Frank Joseph and others have reappraised Italy’s role in WWII - when you read Ciano’s diary you get quite a different picture of what was happening than what you typically read in un-informed or badly researched histories.
_________________ Vince Tassone
Vincent Fiore
Generale di Brigata Aerea
Joined: 25 Jun 2009
Posts: 167
Location: USA
Posted: Thu Sep 20, 2018 2:22 am
Thank you for the information.
Thanks For The Promotion Vince
Retired In Kalifornia
Generale di Divisone Aerea
Joined: 07 Mar 2018
Posts: 533
Location: Cameron Park, California
Posted: Thu Sep 20, 2018 5:40 am
Must work harder to EARN it never mind all the previous promotions. After 21 years on the internet finally found a welcome home to display my models
Vincent Biondi
Generale di Divisone Aerea
Joined: 30 Oct 2006
Posts: 532
Location: Niagara On The Lake, On. Canada
Posted: Thu Sep 20, 2018 8:47 am
The first image is the MC200 Bis with a Piaggio P.XIX R.C.45. The experimental installation of a Piaggio P XIX gave rise to the C. 200 bis using the cell of the 8191 MM, photographed here at the Breda factory in its final appearance.
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