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New photos MC.205 Serie VI
Daniele Gatti
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Interesting new photos are published in the book (new edition revised and expanded): Centauri su Torino (G.Garello):


(Translation. Another picture of the MC 205 Serie VI at Venaria seems to confirm that the camouflage in two shades of gray)


(Translation. Maintenance on the DB 605, on the background MC 205 MM.98219, the 2nd of Serie VI, tested March 23, 1944. The diagonal bands appear in light gray and dark gray)





And always on the same book..A Serie III..

(Translation. Below: Campoformido. The specialists set in motion a Veltro's DB 605 of the 1^ Squadriglia "Asso di Bastoni")


Last edited by Daniele Gatti on Tue Jan 25, 2011 2:31 am; edited 1 time in total
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fw190ddora
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good book..i have same decals for that macchi.
Ciao Daniele.. Very Happy
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Editor
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Incredible photos, especially the mix of G.55s and Veltros.

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Question about Greys
kippenhan
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Daniele,
These are very interesting photos. You stated the Macchi colors are grey, does this mean that the brown/greey depicted in "Camouflage and markings of the ANR 1943-45" by D'Amico and Valentini is incorrect? How are you determining they are grey?

Also, where can you purchse this book, I have not been able to find the new edition listed.

Thanks

Mike
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Daniele Gatti
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Hi Mike! Wink

It's obvious that no one has the truth in pocket..
And it is assumed that everyone can make their own opinion by looking at these pictures..
I make some observations following the deductive logic..

First point to be proven completely, for now: where are those documents that would say that in Macchi were never even used the german colors (RLM)?
Ok for the famous Fiat G.55 yellow/green..Also because the Fiat is always..The Fiat..
And that airplane, fled to Piombino, coming directly from the Fiat's factory airfield..
But also in Reggiane (ex: Pavullo) German colors were used all right..
In my opinion the G.55 in yellow/green is no evidence that in Macchi's airplane never left the factory with the German colors.. IMHO..
It seems (to me, of course) more logical to think that there was a phase of "change" the colors.. Before there was an herringbone in yellow/green (those partially repainted) and after there was another in tones of gray (the ones we see in these images)..

Second point: We know the German mentality..
In my personal opinion, why do not we find the 22-2 "repainted" means adjusted as other examples?
It can not rise to the doubt that this particular aircraft (and/or others) do not "disturb" the Germans..And then it was complying with their shades of color?
Some partially repainted..Others do not..
Why is the 22-2 (and others who see in these new pictures) no, it was yellow/green and was punched in the colors of the other aircraft?
It is simply not plausible that some were in fact yellow/green, and at one point began to leave the factory with the same herringbone, but in shades of gray-suited to the Germans and the camouflage of other aircraft and avoid further work on the ward?
Why is not likely this opinion?

Third point: why the testimony of Macchi's former employess bring back their memories (memories, for goodness sake, not documents) of the fuselage of the Series VI on Lonate Pozzolo a color "gray" rather than yellow/green? Wow, even though a memory, between gray and yellow/green is a big difference..

Fourth point:.. There is a big difference between VOS2 (green) of the G.55 in the background..And the brindle Macchi C.205..
Even if a green "special" used in Macchi, have you ever seen the Folgore VOS2 in total..? They were just the same as the G.55 VOS2.. So do not stand still even the possibility of a green "special" used in Macchi..
In Macchi, in last years, were generally used only two types of green VOS 2 and VM 3..

I do not know..
Even in my ignorance, these questions have never been contradicted by documentary evidence..
It seems more logical to me, being the grandson of a German who fought in the war, those machines that "Tiger" (I mean the Series VI) were not an eyesore for the Teutonic allies..
Otherwise.. Other than Nein, nein..RIVERNICIAREN!!

If not..It would be the first case in which we Italians have managed to "digest" in one of our German allies imposed on them a specific job (of the 205 Series VI) ..Where, I think, have been very adamant about how to paint..

All IMHO of course..
Both photos are visible to all.. And each draws its conclusions looking at them..

Wink
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Kagemusha
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Great photos, very interesting discussion.
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Mirek Riha
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Hi,

IMHO on the last photo is Mc 205 serie III (1 Sq I Gruppo ANR) no "fresh-factory" serie VI.

And on all-green airplane VOS2 look much darker then on Smoke-rigs camo

And what about Macchi 205 5-3 with "mixed camo"?

Mirek
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Daniele Gatti
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Hi Mirek! Wink

I put the last picture just because it's interesting..
But it has nothing to do with the Serie VI..It's a Serie III... Wink

For me, the Veltro 5-3 (mixed striped/splinter), it is an example that, at least initially, the herringbone was yellow/green (and for the Germans it was not ok)..After..It varied in shades of gray ..

IMHO means.. Wink
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Mirek Riha
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Hi Daniele,

in "Camouflage and markings of the ANR 1943-45" book are pictures

103-105 was an Mc 205 in similar camo like 5-3 (code is 8-2)

IMO it is VOS2/NC4 camo

Maybe I am wrong, but only 15 Macchi serie VI was built, probably 9 was deliverd to ANR. From which MM has been camo changed?

The picture below shows Macchi MM 98219 (second in the batch) supposedly in RLM camo. This seems a little strange...

Mirek
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This is a very interesting discussion. I think Daniele has a point, the variation in color (VOS2 in question here) between the G.55s and the C.205s is far too large (in all the photos). This suggests the C.205V Herringbone camo scheme in Ferdinando’s book may very well apply to only a small batch of C.205s or that the planes in the photos saw changes in the field using RLM paints, which were available to the ANR at the time. Although Ferdinando’s book is well researched and is the most up to date reference on the subject (Ferdinando did provide some useful information for Italian Bf.109 Aces Part III), its not without its inaccuracies, take for instance the profile of 2o Gruppo Diavolo Rosso in the same book, its nowhere near the image contained in the photos on which its based and the book itself is a correction (in part) to the Monogram book printed in 1985. Recently new information surfaced regarding the stenciling of the RA wing fasces (a single photo) and although this suggests we need to revise what we know about these stencils’, I don’t believe we can generalize what we know based on one photo - for all we know this was a one-off. So I would take these photos for what they are, the C.205Vs in the photos appear to be carrying a camo scheme other than VOS2 and NC4, possibly RLM colors (grays).

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Re: New photos MC.205 Serie VI
azzalin67
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Hello from Gallarate.
Due to a personal historical research about ANR I kindly ask you to inform me if you know the Military Matriculations (in Italian: Matricola Militare) of the Macchi C. 205 tested in Lonate Pozzolo on 12th Aug. 1944 and crashed in the fields at Arsago (Via Gabriele D'Annunzio) during the testing flight with on board the pilot Giordano Bruno Migliavacca. This Macchi C. 205 crashed due to an abject sabotage. Giordano Bruno Migliavacca died heroically.
Thanks in advance for your appreciated attention and understanding.
Best regards.
Dr Roberto Azzalin
author of Caro valoroso Migliavacca, le imprese di un pilota varesino
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Stefano
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Sadly, it seems that the MM on which Migliavacca died is still unknown. However, you know that he tested the last six MC.205s built, all of them of the VI serie. Of these, MM 98227 was found by the Allies at Lonate Pozzolo at the end of the war, but the fate of the remaining five (MMs 98228 to 98232) is not known. Maybe the fallen aircraft is among these.
I think that the only way to identify that Macchi is to gather its relic.
Regards

Stefano
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Thank you Stefano!

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azzalin67
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Dear Stefano,
thanks a lot for your appreciated E-Mail.
I have sent an E-Mail at your E-Mail address in Italian language.
Kindest regards.
Roberto
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Camo and Paint
BlackTulip109
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Hi Daniele

In reference to your January 24, 2011 post I appreciate all the information and detail as well as the points you mention.

I agree Italian Aircraft coming out of Italian factories would have been painted using Italian paint.
Over the years during my travels and research and speaking with persons who had hands on experience, it was told to me that "in the field" of operations while in North Africa or the Russian Front there were times the Germans "borrowed" paints from the Italians as well as Brits, and the Brits made use of Italian paints they "borrowed" from Italian captured stocks.

More as the years go by and I came across actual persons who were witness to it I realize it was the Italians who were the masters of the art of the camoflage in the desert and the Germans were the "students". It was more the Germans using the Italian stocks than the Italians using German stocks.

As for Americans and Brits I don't think they had any problem using whatever they could get their hands on.
I did meet a few British Hurricane and Tomahawk pilots who flew in North Africa during WW2 and they told me they used Italian captured paints on their aircraft because it was known the Italian paints did not "peel" away after a few sorties like the British paints.
I found these conversations always interesting as often times many of us do not think about these side issues.

One of my favorite photos published in colour on WARHISTORY .com is of a British pilot standing at the trailing edge of his Hurricane after a mission in North Africa and the colour scheme is a much faded "desert camo" pattern. It is really cool I would love to make that model with "that" look.

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New photos MC.205 Serie VI
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