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Should the West Intervene in Libya ?
Yes, Omar Khadafi is a madman and must be stopped
55%
 55%  [ 5 ]
No, the West should stay out of it, its a ME problem
44%
 44%  [ 4 ]
Total Votes : 9

Should the West Intervene in Libya ?
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Should the West Intervene in Libya ?

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Vincent Fiore
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We should get out as soon as possible. Our troupes are exorsted by fighting in two prolonged wars. Our nation is bankrupt. Our dumb president does not know what he wants. First he said that Codify must go then he said it is not our aim to replace him. He is a novice that should never have been elected. This is what happens when a leader has no experience in foreign affairs. Crying or Very sad
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I agree Vince, it doesn't appear there's an end game in sight. My question is, what's the purpose of bombing and establishing a no-fly zone without regime change? Unfortunately for Italy, although the Allies will bomb Libya into the stone-age, Italy will end-up with thousands of Libyan refugees. You might recall not long ago, Berlusconi had to pay-off Khadafi about $5 billion USD to stop the masses of Libyans turning up in Italy illegally (like the Mexican issue in the US). As you might imagine soon after the ransom was paid to Khadafi, Libyan refugees stopped showing up in Italian ports.

I'm not sure what Italy's involvement is in this Air Campaign, but I don't expect the result will be good in the long run unless Khadafi's booted out for good. btw I believe Khadafi's son once played in Seria A/B.

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m.lacivita
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I agree Vince, it doesn't appear there's an end game in sight. My question is, what's the purpose of bombing and establishing a no-fly zone without regime change? Unfortunately for Italy, although the Allies will bomb Libya into the stone-age, Italy will end-up with thousands of Libyan refugees. You might recall not long ago, Berlusconi had to pay-off Khadafi about $5 billion USD to stop the masses of Libyans turning up in Italy illegally (like the Mexican issue in the US). As you might imagine soon after the ransom was paid to Khadafi, Libyan refugees stopped showing up in Italian ports.

I'm not sure what Italy's involvement is in this Air Campaign, but I don't expect the result will be good in the long run unless Khadafi's booted out for good. btw I believe Khadafi's son once played in Seria A/B.



Some clarifications if I may.
The payments to Qaddafi were made as a fee for Italy's colonial occupation of Lybia from 1911 to 1942. Of course, this was just to give him a candy and persuade him to sign a series of commercial and political agreements, last but not least a treaty about co-operation in stopping the refugees exodus across the Mediterranean.
As for the reasons of this war, I fear that all was started by France not only for stopping Qaddafi's violence (there are many other places in the world where political leaders open fire on they own citizens) but for causing his fall, in order to penetrate with their oil companies in a market that today is almost monopolized by Italians. Maybe our good friend Jean can add his point of view.
Regarding Italian involvement in the operations, all the major air bases in Sicily and Italian mainland are at service of the coalition forces. Italy itself is running air missions with six Tornadoes and four F-16.
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m.lacivita wrote:
Webmaster wrote:
I agree Vince, it doesn't appear there's an end game in sight. My question is, what's the purpose of bombing and establishing a no-fly zone without regime change? Unfortunately for Italy, although the Allies will bomb Libya into the stone-age, Italy will end-up with thousands of Libyan refugees. You might recall not long ago, Berlusconi had to pay-off Khadafi about $5 billion USD to stop the masses of Libyans turning up in Italy illegally (like the Mexican issue in the US). As you might imagine soon after the ransom was paid to Khadafi, Libyan refugees stopped showing up in Italian ports.

I'm not sure what Italy's involvement is in this Air Campaign, but I don't expect the result will be good in the long run unless Khadafi's booted out for good. btw I believe Khadafi's son once played in Seria A/B.


Some clarifications if I may.
The payments to Qaddafi were made as a fee for Italy's colonial occupation of Lybia from 1911 to 1942. Of course, this was just to give him a candy and persuade him to sign a series of commercial and political agreements, last but not least a treaty about co-operation in stopping the refugees exodus across the Mediterranean.
As for the reasons of this war, I fear that all was started by France not only for stopping Qaddafi's violence (there are many other places in the world where political leaders open fire on they own citizens) but for causing his fall, in order to penetrate with their oil companies in a market that today is almost monopolized by Italians. Maybe our good friend Jean can add his point of view.
Regarding Italian involvement in the operations, all the major air bases in Sicily and Italian mainland are at service of the coalition forces. Italy itself is running air missions with six Tornadoes and four F-16.


Yes the agreement was made ostensibly as war reparations, but it was clear (at least from here) what the primary motives were. I'm not sure what Italy has to gain from taking part in these attacks aside from protecting its commercial interests from the Allies themselves. It was pretty clear Berlusconi had taken care of the Libyan issue and Italy are now looking at a new phase in Italo-Libyan relations if Omar Khadafi survives, which it appears he will manage to do. What a mess the Allies have caused. Btw how does one spell Khadafi, Iíve seen 6 or 7 different spellings appear in various newspapers Smile

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GAJouette
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I see absolutely no reason for the U.S or NATO too be involved in Libya.Especially under any U.N resolution, supposedly for humanitarian reasons.If this were true why isn't the U.N invading every country were the government is actively either murdering or oppressing it's own people.Honestly I believe that the U.Sand NATO have just taken a swat at a hornet's nest with this one we're all going to get stung.

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Gregory Jouette
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two-o-five
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I've found this weblog by Italian aviation journalist David Cenciotti very informative in keeping up on each day's events and the dynamics of the various participants:

http://cencio4.wordpress.com/
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I think it would be inconsistent to say France's primary interest was oil, particularly since they opposed the US coalition into Iraq on those grounds. I think France's interest lie in a Pan-Mediterranean zone of influence lead by France - as articulated by Nicolas Sarkozy. The US has been talked into involvement - I find it interesting to read newspapers that call for American aid when the world's in trouble (militarily or economically) and then complain about the very help they receive. The US receives about 200,000 bbl/d of Libyan oil of its 20MM bbl/d requirement ie., hardly a concern. The Brits appear to have no real interest other than except BP. However, what I find even more baffling is the Canadian involvement in the bombing campaign (6 x CF-18s). I like our Conservatives, theyíve done a great job navigating the global economic crisis however when it comes to foreign affairs, our Conservatives act more like US wannabes, however without be invited to the dance.

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Vincent Biondi
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Hello All,
There is already a riff between France and Italy on who should be in charge.
Italy, along with The UK, Norway and Denmark want NATO to be in charge, France says no.
Also, even though Gaddafi is a dictator, evil and insane, he at least is keeping some kind of stability in Libya.
If his regime gets toppled, I hope that the next leader is NOT connected to any Islamic faction. if so LOOK OUT!!!
Vincent.
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m.lacivita
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I'm not sure what Italy has to gain from taking part in these attacks


Italy's position is quite...uncomfortable: our oil and gas needs are fulfilled in a large part from Lybian supplies, we need help from lybia to prevent illegal immigration from Africa, many Italian companies have commercial interest there, and not only in the oil business: those are the reasons because Italy was forced to sign friendship treaties with the Colonel, and treated him as a chief of state rather than a clown. On the other hand, we are a western country, loyal to ONU, US, France, GB and so on: that's why we can't refuse to participate an Allied mission, as we always did in Iraq, Yugoslavia and still in Afghanistan. Unconfortable position, you see...

Webmaster wrote:
What a mess the Allies have caused.


That's for sure, my friend.

Webmaster wrote:
Btw how does one spell Khadafi, Iíve seen 6 or 7 different spellings appear in various newspapers Smile


In Italy, we call him Muhammar al-Gheddafi.
Tongue in cheek: he is a Colonel. How the heck is possible that in Lybia there is not a General?
Tongue in cheek no. 2: did you know that during a recent Frecce Tricolori aerobatic show in Lybia, the Colonel asked the Italian Commander only use green smoke trails to celebrate Lybia's national color, instead of the usual tri-color smoke? Do you guess what the answer was?[/quote]
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m.lacivita wrote:

Tongue in cheek no. 2: did you know that during a recent Frecce Tricolori aerobatic show in Lybia, the Colonel asked the Italian Commander only use green smoke trails to celebrate Lybia's national color, instead of the usual tri-color smoke? Do you guess what the answer was?


I would have imagined a higher ranking officer other than a colonel of the Frecce Tricolori telling Khadafi where to stuff the other colors? But my guess is Khadafi got his way.

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m.lacivita
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m.lacivita wrote:

Tongue in cheek no. 2: did you know that during a recent Frecce Tricolori aerobatic show in Lybia, the Colonel asked the Italian Commander only use green smoke trails to celebrate Lybia's national color, instead of the usual tri-color smoke? Do you guess what the answer was?


I would have imagined a higher ranking officer other than a colonel of the Frecce Tricolori telling Khadafi where to stuff the other colors? But my guess is Khadafi got his way.


Sorry Vince, I was not clear. The Colonel asking not to use the red and white was Colonel Qaddafi. In other words: he wanted no Italian flag colors over Lybia.
Major Massimo Tammaro, then Commander of the Frecce, simply said : no flag, no show.
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I understood fully what you meant, I was making a humors remark about where Khadafi might stick his colors, anatomically speak that is Smile

Bravo per Major Tammaro!

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two-o-five
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I read a news magazine piece a few weeks ago regarding the Egyptian ďrevolutionĒ that said we Americans are too quick to support someone elseís revolution without understanding the players or the consequences. Their main point was that the group that ultimately assumes power is the one who is the most organized, most ideological, and most ruthless. I tend to agree.

Itís nice that the people of Egypt have decided to depose their dictator in hopes of democracy, but Iíll be very surprised if they donít wind up with an Iranian-style theocracy.

The problem in Libya is that there is no middle class to assume power. I feel we should have never gone in, but there was probably the concern that a drawn out civil war would attract jihadis. The world doesnít need another Somalia.

Some of Gaddafiís key ministers have defected to the opposition and are reaching out as moderates. I believe we will be working covertly to put one of them in power to maintain order.
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two-o-five wrote:
I read a news magazine piece a few weeks ago regarding the Egyptian ďrevolutionĒ that said we Americans are too quick to support someone elseís revolution without understanding the players or the consequences. Their main point was that the group that ultimately assumes power is the one who is the most organized, most ideological, and most ruthless. I tend to agree.

Itís nice that the people of Egypt have decided to depose their dictator in hopes of democracy, but Iíll be very surprised if they donít wind up with an Iranian-style theocracy.


This is a good point, however Egypt is too important a part in the stability of the area. The Egyptian army is equipped with about 1,000 M1s (best tank in the world) and about another 200-300 M1A1 and M1A2s, its quiet a formidable ground force and fairly modern and well equipped - training unknown. The US will deploy operatives to prevent such a thing happening (a theocracy) (similar to your comment below). The CIA has grown-up from its early days of clandestine operations. We'll soon see what transpires, but me think the Egyptian army has things under control and the army is secular. Could very well see a compromise between a new Head of State (a replacement for Murbarak/President) and an elected assembly (House/Government) with limited but greater powers than before.

two-o-five wrote:

The problem in Libya is that there is no middle class to assume power. I feel we should have never gone in, but there was probably the concern that a drawn out civil war would attract jihadis. The world doesnít need another Somalia.

Some of Gaddafiís key ministers have defected to the opposition and are reaching out as moderates. I believe we will be working covertly to put one of them in power to maintain order.


I agree - Italy should look to broker a deal between the Allies and Khadafi if the Allies can't get boots on the ground.

btw great link above.

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Should the West Intervene in Libya ?
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