Italian "Aces" - Confirmed Kills

[jack48]

The revisionists' paradigm that most nation's air forces confirmed victories are based on single and shared "kills" is changing what for many years was the standard as applied the Regia Aeronautica among other national air forces in World War II.

Here is a link to Jan Safarik's mult-inational list and scroll down to ITALY WWII.

http://aces.safarikovi.org/

Franco Lucchini is top scorer with 74 (22 + 52! shared). And the list goes on with extensive data on the subject.

[Vincent Biondi]

Hello Jack48,
Go to Stormo main page and click History articles, and you will find mine entitled, "Inconsistencies in the Total Victories of WW2 Aces"
You will find it quite interesting, and has just what you are talking about.
The fact is that the Allied Air Force Aces have always included individual and shared kills in their total score, for example Johnnie Johnson 38 victories (31 Ind + 7 Shared). The Italian Aces only had their individual scores and did not include shared.
Today, through research from Italian Historians, more and more facts and stats are being uncovered form pilots log books, official documents from squadrons, and their commanders about the kills and victories that were attributed to Italian pilots.
Vincent.

[jack48]

Thank you for the reference Vincent. Your article is fascinating and very useful especially when I cross referenced it against Safarik's material in which he references over fifty sources. Safarik's list shows Bordoni-Bisleri with 19 confirmed individual but 18 shared unconfirmed whereas he should be third on this list along with Martinoli as you noted. The Safarik list includes the ground victories as well but places them under "Other Victories" as compared with American victory tallies which for the Army Airforces ground victories are included in total victories I believe.

I hope that you do a followup to your article, and update it regularly. Records from German sources about Italian pilots' exploits are welcome (as you point out in one particular case).

I always found the exploits of Vittorio Minguzzi compelling especially because he commanded the Re-2005 unit. Most of the material I have read over the past several years conclude that the highest scoring Wing is the 4th Stormo of course. With all this new information, it would be very interesting to see lists based on units. I would imagine that the totals have been underestimated up till now.

Again, thank you for the reference. I look forward to future articles and information from you.

[Vincent Biondi]

Helllo Jack,
I'm glad that you enjoyed the article.
I try to do some research on my own as well and each time I go to visit my friends and family in Italy, I find new books on this subject.
As a matter of fact, I just ordered two books that were recently written, one on Buscaglia's Torpedo Squadron and another new book on Italian Aces, entitled "The Young Aces", both by G. Bianchi.
Take Care,
Vincent.

[Vincent Biondi]

.....For example, it was often said that in the past the two ANR fighter groups downed some 250 allied planes, but in reality the 2º Gruppo Caccia never downed more than 15, with probably comparable numbers for the 1º Gruppo Caccia....

Hello,
What do you mean by " it was often said"? I hate it when people make blanket statements like that.
15 aircraft destoyed from a total of 250 for the 1st and 2 Gruppos is quite a significant drop!
Where are you getting your stats from? Let me guess, Time Life WW2 books?
What about the RAF and its discrepancies with the Battle of Britain? Are you going to tell me that the same applys?
Here we go again, whenever the suject has to do with Italian successes in WW2, there is always someone who comes out with negative comments or revised figures.
Nothing has changed in over 70 years!
Why is it so hard to believe that Italian pilots were as good as German, RAF and Russian Pilots?
Just take a look at the Regia Aeronautica's stellar combat record in Italian East Africa, when they flew CR32s and Cr42s against Hurricanes!!!
Vincent.

[Nino]

Hi Vincent,

I agree with you totally. Italian pilots still don't get the proper recognition they deserved from both world wars despite having smaller numbers of pilots and aircraft than the RAF, Luftwaffe. The Folgore and Veltro were easily an equal to anything up in the air at the time of their production. Italian pilots usually faced overwhelming opposition in combat in most cases anyway, so it was always going to be tough for them to rack up high kill rates! Nevertheless, they were an equal in combat skill!

regards
Nino (Forza Veltro C.205!)

[SuperAereo]

(...) Italian pilots still don't get the proper recognition they deserved from both world wars despite having smaller numbers of pilots and aircraft than the RAF, Luftwaffe.

Actually, this is perhaps a misconception, according to John Ellis in 1939 Italy possessed 1796 aircraft and Britain 1660 (the Luftwaffe had 2916).

What was lacking was a clear strategical vision, proper leadership, modern aircraft and training methods.

[Nino]

I think it is unfare to compare RAF to Italian Inventroy numbers from 1939.
A high proportion of italian air-craft were pre WW2 standard!

As the war went on, after 1941-42 the RAF always had a clear advantage with its US ally!

Nino (Forza Veltro C.205)

[SuperAereo]

As the war went on, after 1941-42 the RAF always had a clear advantage with its US ally!

In the Mediterranean theatre only from late 1942 (the first Spitfires arrived in Malta in March that year, Torch was in November), but until then the RAF was not much better than the Regia Aeronautica. And the LW was also there from the Spring of 1941.

[Editor]

(...) Italian pilots still don't get the proper recognition they deserved from both world wars despite having smaller numbers of pilots and aircraft than the RAF, Luftwaffe.

Actually, this is perhaps a misconception, according to John Ellis in 1939 Italy possessed 1796 aircraft and Britain 1660 (the Luftwaffe had 2916).

This is not an accurate statement, Britain had a clear and overwhelming superiority in the number of aircraft, tanks and ships it could produce through out the war. To say otherwise, or to manipulate the figures to present a false picture is both misleading and not helpful to those seriously interested in the study this topic.

Also as a warning, I kindly ask you to identify yourself (email me privately) as the Forum Rules clearly indicate, otherwise you will be banned.

https://stormomagazine.com/phpbb2/viewtopic.php?t=7

[Editor]

I have deleted two of Superaero's posts, please keep the discussions focused and please reference facts and figures accurately. Although I enjoy intense debates and heated discussions, we're trying to get away from WWII slogans and propaganda. Thank you.

[Vincent Biondi]

... but attributing 74 victories to Lucchini is honestly laughable, when one considers the lack of firepower and above all the notoriously non-existant gunnery training the brave Regia Aeronautica pilots suffered from ...

Why would you say that!
Do you question John Pattle's score? He had a combined Individual + shared score of 35-40, other sources say 50 and he obtained quite a few on the Glostor Gladiator biplane, no different than Lucchini.
Do you question any of the so called Luftwaffe Aces that flew in the Russian campaign with their scores of 200 - 300 claims? How about Eric Hartmann's score? According to Russian historian Dimitri Khazanov, his score should not be 352, but closer to 80!!!
Lucchini's score laughable?
How would you or D'amico know?
Where any of you there when he was on tour?
Lucchini was an outstanding pilot. Just look at what Mario Visintini did with a CR42 in East Africa against Hurricanes! He managed to shoot down 19 aircraft and 32 on the ground in less than one year. Lucchini served for three years and flew much more combat sorties, so DO THE MATH!!!
It took painstaking years for Historians like Massimello and Apostolo to research and write a book on ITALIAN ACES OF WW2 and finally give some recognition to the brave men that served for the RA.
Others like Garello, Malizia, have also taken the time to write about the explots and when I read crap like ...attributing 74 victories to Lucchini is laughable... makes my blood boil!!!!
More and more documents and personal pilot diaries are being discovered all the time, that supports new evidence about combat sorties, kills and so on.
Let's say that one were to apply the same criteria to Pattle's score really being 8 to 10 kills and not 40. Do you honestly think that an Englishman would admit to that? I think not, because that is where National Pride comes in, something that some ITALIANI do not share, because off their political beliefs!!
So, what do they do, but try to justify the wrong in Italy's war effort, even at the expense of a pilot like Lucchini who does not deserve it, no matter what he believed in. I find that very sad indeed.
Whether one agrees or disagrees with Fascist Italy's alliance with Germany being good or bad, it should not interfere or judge the Regia Aeronautica pilots, because they were also there to do a job, good or bad.
I recenty purchsed a book entitled "Gloster Galdiator Aces", the book is about the Gladiator Biplane Aces of WW2 and guess what, the list is very small. Also, in the book the authors always refere to "claims" and not actual kills, yet I don't see them disputing any of the scores attributed to the pilots, even if they were or are exaggerated. Again, the difference between British pride and some Italian pride.
Note that I said some and not all, since I am one that DOES HAVE PRIDE, even though I was born in Canada!
Vincent.

[Nino]

Vince & Vincent,

Thanks for your assistance in backing me up on this topic.

Despite Italy's shortfall in quantities of supplies and equipment, the RA and ANR still fought bravely against its RAF opposition.

To state that some of the victory kill figures were laughable is inappropriate!


Regards,
Nino (Forza C.205 Veltro)
PS: Hey Vince, how do you add a picture of a plane under your log-on for the forum. I want to add a c.205 under my (Nino) name!

[Editor]

Ciao Tony,
In your profile, go to the Avatar Control Panel and click the Show Gallery button. In the Select Category drop down list box select Regia_Aeronautcia_Fighters and click the Go button. A list of RA fighters will appear. Click the radio button underneath the aircraft you want and click the Select Avatar button.

[Nino]

Vince,

Thanks for letting me know!

Your a legend!

Regards
Nino