Erla is coming

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Re: Erla is coming

Post by Editor » Mon Jan 02, 2023 8:35 am

Near perfection. Attention to detail is outstanding. Great job!

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s00ntir
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Re: Erla is coming

Post by s00ntir » Mon Jan 02, 2023 8:56 am

Thank you. Actually I'm not especially happy with this build. Too mamy problems, too many mistakes, too many changes. But I've learnt a lot.
Last edited by s00ntir on Mon Jan 02, 2023 11:15 am, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Erla is coming

Post by s00ntir » Mon Jan 02, 2023 9:03 am

And next one is ready for airbrushing - this time a "Frederico" ;-) F-4
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Re: Erla is coming

Post by Editor » Mon Jan 02, 2023 5:55 pm

Interesting subject, 363 Sq. F-4/trop(?), Wkn 13260, 78-79 camo with small grey spots, likely GAC1 (or just in the tropical camo as shown in the profile below). Ten. Camaioni is shown inside the cockpit of the first color photo. In the first batch of Bf.109Gs received by the RA, there were a few F4s for training purposes. The RA would receive a total 15 F4s. Note in the ASI #1 profile, there is no tropical filter and the bottom two photos seem to confirm this. Also note, in the second b&w photo, on the port side flap is a donut shaped marking, possibly a repair. Here's some information:

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Re: Erla is coming

Post by s00ntir » Mon Jan 02, 2023 9:12 pm

Thank you for your help. I know this book and these pictures. There are some mysteries regarding this camo - 1) I don't know if the camo pattern visible on first picture on plane's fusealge was repeated on the wings area. There are some suggestionst that there were grey spots on the wings - but I'm not convinced.... what's the reason for such differentation of camo pattern? What do you think about approach of Heroes Models 1/48 Messerschmitt Bf109 Regia Aeronautica Part 1 Painting Masks? I know - never trust artist's profiles - but I'd probably used the same pattern in both places. 2) the color - those pictures are old and of poor quality - but in my oppinion this grey / blue color applied in the field does'nt look like grigio azzurro chiaro - it seems too dark and too blue - there's almost no difference between this color and RLM 78. I really don't know what to think. 3) this "donut" shaped marking on the flap - completely no idea what color should I use....And I don't see any guns in the first picture. Questions, questions, questions....

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Re: Erla is coming

Post by Editor » Tue Jan 03, 2023 8:23 am

1) The upper surface camo on this particular machine is sometimes assumed to stretch over the entire upper surfaces (wings). If you expand the photo and examine the starboard side wing leading edges you can see traces of of the blue-gray (possibly mottled). I don't have more information for this plane but Stefano might.

I agree there are no other examples of this kind of camo scheme outside this plane in RA service (Bf.109) and there doesn't appear to be another example of this camo scheme in German service either, although German Bf.109s could be painted elborately. Most likely field applied and possibly of German origin, but again I have no other information for this plane outside the sequence of shots in ASI #1.

I'm not familiar with Heroes Models 1/48 Messerschmitt Bf109 Regia Aeronautica Part 1 Painting Masks or the people there.

2) As suggested above, the blue gray branch scheme is of possible German origin. The plane could have been received that way. Also note the blue gray becomes quiet dense underneath the cockpit fuselage, possibly obscuring other markings. If of Italian origin, GAC1 was applied over German markings and there would have been no reason to change the paint. The Italians did not have access to German paint stocks until after the Armistice. I have these kinds discussions with Stefano all the time when we do a decal sheet, my position is that there needs to be more than one photo of a plane that clearly shows a break from previous views. Lighting, dynamic range, filters, processing etc are all variables that can affect the film and the final quality of the print.

3) I have no idea what the marking is on the flap, likely a dark red. Its something you don't need to model but to be aware of. Also note the white wing tips.

No wing guns.

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Re: Erla is coming

Post by s00ntir » Tue Jan 03, 2023 8:31 am

Thank you very much. By the way - my concern was about cowling guns. Decision has to be taken.... or it will stay in black primer forever ;-)

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Re: Erla is coming

Post by Editor » Tue Jan 03, 2023 8:45 am

No information indicating the guns were removed at the unit level; to be used for gunnery practice and pressed into service if needed. I would keep the guns.

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Re: Erla is coming

Post by s00ntir » Tue Jan 03, 2023 1:52 pm

I'm watching those picture and thinking - so how about such concept - RLM 78 / 79 is obvious - but maybe I'd paint upper surfaces of RLM 79 with blotches of RLM78 with only German markings covered with GAC1? If we assume that this unusual camo was of German origin - it would make sense. I don't remember the source of this information but I've read somewhere that those F-4 were taken from some Luftwaffe Greek location. Maybe that was the reason for applying this blue blotches in the field? For me the blue-grey colors on the first picturs seem to be identical. Of course it's just some kind of speculation but - if nothing is sure - at least such camo would be different ;-)

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Re: Erla is coming

Post by Editor » Tue Jan 03, 2023 2:49 pm

I agree and you also need to decide what you want to do with the top wing camo. I mean its a strange camo indeed which ever way you look at it (from an RA perspective that is), the top wings are finished in a blue gray, branched/streaks or mottled is quiet unusual and it all points to German origin. The closest thing I can think of is the Ju 88 night fighter schemes as below. Interestingly this Ju 88 unit I/KG 54 was based in Italy and the scheme might have been inspired by the Macchi's they regularly encountered. In this case, white (?) streaks over the standard camo 79/80. The undersurface colors are reversed.

Also a top view of a Bf.109E in tropical colors 78/79 with 80 mottles.

Hopefully Stefano has more to add here.

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Re: Erla is coming

Post by s00ntir » Wed Jan 04, 2023 12:08 am

So it's decided - more or less. Thank you for your great help nad patience. I'm still somehow new to Italian camuflage schemes and I have to learn a lot. I'll start new topic regarding F-4. All comments of all members are really welcome.

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Re: Erla is coming

Post by Stefano » Fri Jan 06, 2023 3:50 pm

In my personal opinion, overspray was a soft and dense squiggle of a darker tone than GAC1 (see for comparison the undercarriage door of the MC.200 in the background), a pattern never used by Italians but, as stressed by Vince, sometimes used lately by Germans. Hence, I believe it was RLM 75. As for deleting German insignia, a similar tone could have been made on the field by mixing some paints.
Time ago I asked to the late Ferdinando D'Amico the meaning of the 'donut' on the flap, but he had no answers to give me. Once I thought it simply could have been a soiling mark of a paint can put on the flap in horizontal position...
Guns are not clearly seen in the pictures, but a sort of gunsmoke is visible in the gun wells. General opinion is that F-4s and G-2s were used just for training, but with such a high rate of loss in combat I'd be not sure of it. I'd keep the guns.
As for the basic camo, I think sand yellow is too light for having been RLM 78, which was similar or identical to Nocciola Chiaro 4, a light brown. I'd better choose the Italian Sand proposed by Merrick & Hitchcock, that's the Giallo Mimetico 4, though I know this should have been used mainly by E-7s, while the F-4s were likely painted in factory with the new official colours.
By the way this aircraft, WNF-built Wkn 13260, was found and photographed by the Allies in July 1943 as a wingless relic beside the airfield of Sciacca. It then wore a full-colour badge of 150° Gruppo -and it's the only known example for 363^ Squadriglia-, that was set between the 3rd and 4th frame on portside (as on starboard, but usually at port it was between 2nd and 3rd frame). Moreover, it had the white spinner replaced by another one with a tight b/w spiral, typical of Mtt Regensburg.
Stefano

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Re: Erla is coming

Post by s00ntir » Sat Jan 07, 2023 1:47 am

Stefano - thank you very much for your opinion. I'll think about it - and probably do some tests / experiments with various combinations of colors and patterns first. This camo is somehow demanding for me - not because of blue-gray squiggles but mostly because this machine was war-weary so the model needs various shades of each paint and different techniques to make it "burnt" with the sun.

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Re: Erla is coming

Post by s00ntir » Sun Jan 08, 2023 3:28 pm

Gentlemen,

It seems that such strange camo as applied to F-4/trop was not so unusual in Luftwaffe. I've found some pictures of JG 53 and JG 77 planes - seems familiar? Waiting for your comments.
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Me109G2Trop-Stab-I.JG77-(cTriangle+)-I-Gruppe-Commander's-Aircraft-(Abandoned-to-USAAF-79th-Fighter-Group)-Tunisia-1943-26f-s.jpg
Me109G2Trop-Stab-I.JG77-(cTriangle+)-I-Gruppe-Commander's-Aircraft-(Abandoned-to-USAAF-79th-Fighter-Group)-Tunisia-1943-26f-s.jpg (186.71 KiB) Viewed 3064 times
Me109G2Trop-Stab-I.JG77-(cTriangle+)-I-Gruppe-Commander's-Aircraft-(Abandoned-to-USAAF-79th-Fighter-Group)-Tunisia-1943-26f-s.jpg
Me109G2Trop-Stab-I.JG77-(cTriangle+)-I-Gruppe-Commander's-Aircraft-(Abandoned-to-USAAF-79th-Fighter-Group)-Tunisia-1943-26f-s.jpg (186.71 KiB) Viewed 3064 times
Messerschmitt-Bf-109G2Trop-2.JG77-Black-2-Tunisia-1943-01.jpg
Messerschmitt-Bf-109G2Trop-2.JG77-Black-2-Tunisia-1943-01.jpg (152.53 KiB) Viewed 3064 times
Messerschmitt-Bf-109G2Trop-2.JG77-Black-2-Tunisia-1943-01.jpg
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Re: Erla is coming

Post by Editor » Mon Jan 09, 2023 12:32 pm

I think you answered your question. Very interesting photos and supports the camo on the machine Camaioni was in. Since there are no photos of the F4 top wing camo I think you have artistic license to paint anything that seems reasonable. Have fun.

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