Cant.Z. 1007 mimetica policiclica: 2 or 3 colors?

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Cant.Z. 1007 mimetica policiclica: 2 or 3 colors?

Post by Mario_R » Wed May 15, 2024 8:21 am

Dear Sirs,
I'm new in the forum and I'm not an expert on RA topics.
I recently finished reading Storia militare Briefing 41 on Cant.Z. 1007 and I had a doubt about the colors used in polycyclic camouflage schemes.
According to "Colors and camouflage patterns of the Royal Air Force 1935-1943", comparing it with the Briefing, Ali d'Italia and Dimensione Cielo 5 (and unfortunately without the support of any updated documentation) the first Cant.Z. 1007 leave the factory with an A5 livery (Scheme with very extensive transverse bands of three colors with very soft edges - camouflage yellow 3, camouflage green 53192 and camouflage brown 53193 - or were there four and also included camouflage grey? But let's not digress...) and the last ones with uniform continental livery (dark olive green 2) passing through the polycyclic livery that interests me:
1) according to "Colors and camouflage schemes of the Royal Air Force 1935-1943" the polycyclic livery could have three colors (scheme C10A: camouflage yellow 3, camouflage green 3 and camouflage brown 53193) or two (scheme C11: continuous spots camouflage green 3 on camouflage yellow 3);
2) according to the Briefing the polycyclic livery could have three colors (yellow, green and brown) or two (in this case it was the AS type livery with a dark olive green background and light chestnut brown spots).
Hence my first question: how many polycyclic liveries have there been? One, two or three? And what colors were used?
From the analysis of the black and white photos, it doesen’t seems to me possible to have a conclusive answer. How many original color photos exist? I know only the two published on page. 90 and on the fourth cover of the Briefing (which is the same as the fourth cover of Ali d'Italia), that seems to indicate only two colours, yellow base with green spots. But among the original remains examined in “Colors and camouflage schemes of the Royal Air Force 1935-1943”, find E is a Caproni-Lanciani turret of a Cant.Z. 1007 camouflaged with patches of Camouflage Yellow 3, Camouflage Brown 53193 and Camouflage Green 53192. No color plate in the Ali d'Italia volume represents an aircraft with a polycyclic livery with only two colours, but always three.
Second question: is it possible that there were differences between the CMDA and IMAM aircraft’s camouflage patters?
For completeness on the Briefing on page. 52 is published a photo of an aircraft with green spots on a hazelnut background (scheme D2 Colonial/Tropical/NA patterns).
Third question: what were the roles of the 5 crew members? Pilot, co-pilot, radio operator-machine gunner, observer-machine gunner, machine gunner?
Fourth and final question: what is known about the 265-3 aircraft whose photo is published on page. 26 of Ali d'Italia and on page. 40 of the Briefing. What color should the engine fairings be? The livery has a peculiar pattern of the lighter color, different from the polycyclic camouflage, or am I wrong?

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Re: Cant.Z. 1007 mimetica policiclica: 2 or 3 colors?

Post by Editor » Wed May 15, 2024 5:18 pm

Welcome to Stormo.

1) Gray in the banded schemes – Riccardo posted an original drawing from Fiat that showed the use of Gray in the banded scheme many years ago on Stormo, and later, discussed more thoroughly by Stefano in his Vito charts (see imgs 36-39):

https://www.stormomagazine.com/RegiaAer ... Charts.htm

Its possible gray was applied to the Z.1007 Asso but we have no evidence.

2) The two and three tone camo schemes seen on the CANT Z.1007bis did exist, there’s plenty of photos that support both schemes e.g., ADI #18 : p.20 (C11), p.21 (C10A w/ a Macchi like application C8)), p.27 (C10), p.30 (C10). CANT came closest to implementing the original DGCA 14.3.1938, Foglio D'Ordini n.8571 regarding the new network camo schemes.

3) Verde network over a Giallo base.

Yes there were differences in how each factory (CRDA and IMAM) applied the camo schemes to these planes. The tight-dense camo schemes are CRDA. IMAM either painted their planes all Verde or very large mottles of Verde over Giallo. The best way to investigate this is to locate photos with MM and then match the associated camo schemes. IMAM produced three batches of planes (the rest were CRDA bis):

IMAM Z.1007bis
54: MM.23378-23431 Serie VI
20: MM.23432-23451 Serie VI
26: MM.24610-24637 Serie IX

Piaggio Z.1007ter
50: MM.24927-24976 (consegnati all RA : 4)

4) The cockpit had two tandem seats, pilot and co-pilot aligned to port; flight engineer was placed starboard behind the co-pilot's seat; The radio operator sat behind the flight engineer, the plane was equipped with a AR8/RA320ter two way radio set and P63N DF. The bombardier was placed in the forward fuselage. The three crew-members could operate the waist, dorsal and ventral guns.

263-5 undersides and cowling were flat black, the cowling top surfaces appear dark gray because of lighting, but if you examine the lower surfaces of the cowling it’s the same color as the undersides of the aircraft.

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Re: Cant.Z. 1007 mimetica policiclica: 2 or 3 colors?

Post by Mario_R » Thu May 16, 2024 7:46 am

Many thanks,
sadly I don't know Your name, I'm Mario Raspagliosi, from Italy.
Your answer are highly appreciated.
1) This point seems to me still quite inconclusive, a 4th colour (5th incuding the lower parts of the airplane) seems really difficult to identify
2-3) I'm not sure to understand if any "North African" scheme with Nocciola Chiaro and Verde Oliva Scuro was applied to Cant.Z. 1007 or not.
For S/N Storia militare briefing contains a table with each plane producer and the available infos.
4) and 5) All clear, so no dedicated gunner, radio operator, engineer and bomber double as gunner.

Thanks
Mario

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Re: Cant.Z. 1007 mimetica policiclica: 2 or 3 colors?

Post by Editor » Thu May 16, 2024 10:49 am

Most CANT Z.1007bis were completed before 1942, so the Serie Mimetica colors apply to those machines. About 100 Z.1007bis were completed in 1942, the Tavola X colors would apply to those planes, however only after existing paint stocks were exhausted and even then, were likely finished in the Continental scheme VOS2 i.e., bomber units were increasingly used in night-operations. btw early C.202s 1941 Serie I-III were finished in the Serie Mimetica colors also. If a plane was overhauled or had undergone extensive repair it could have been repainted in the Tavola X colors in 1942. If you're suggesting that the Z.1007bis two-tone scheme was in fact Tavola X colors from possible overhauls or repair, from photos its clear the scheme had originated from the factory. There's no photographic evidence of a Z.1007bis finished in NC4+VOS2, ordinarily these colors are not associated with the Z.1007bis - if you find a photo post it here so we can examine it. There is however a photo of a Co-Belligerent Z.1007ter ADI #18 p.49 that looks like it was overhauled (possibly from the factory) and the colors appear to be Tavola X (note the shade of the base color) and the date of construction supports this - use this photo as a reference. btw a photo of a line up of Z.1007bis p.26 ADI#18, the colors are two shades of Verde.

Type Plane Qty MMbeg MMend Manu yr
CRDA Z.1007bis 50 24240 24289 CRDA 1942
CRDA Z.1007bis 30 24529 24558 CRDA 1942
CRDA Z.1007bis 25 24620 24644 CRDA 1942
CRDA Z.1007 ter 10 24610 24619 IMAM 1942
CRDA Z.1007 ter 50 24720 24769 IMAM 1942
CRDA Z.1007 ter 50 24772 24821 Piaggio F. 1942
CRDA Z.1007 ter 50 25398 25447 CRDA 1943
CRDA Z.1007 ter 50 25448 25497 Piaggio F. 1943
CRDA Z.1007 ter 35 25598 25632 CRDA 1943

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Re: Cant.Z. 1007 mimetica policiclica: 2 or 3 colors?

Post by Mario_R » Sat May 18, 2024 1:23 pm

Hi Editor,
many thanks for your kind answer.
I don't have a personal opinion regarding the specific colours used on Cant.Z. 1007 planes, but Decio Zorini in his STORIA Militare BRIEFING n°41 Cant.Z.1007 “ALCIONE” (October 2023) captioned the following photos as Z.1007 finished in NC4+VOS2:

Image

Image

190-8 and 190-2 planes were also photographed here
Image
also in Ali d'Italia 18 - CRDA Cant Z1007 at pag. 31

and these 2-190 plane was further discussed here by Gabriele Luciani:
[url]http://www.modellismosalento.it/oldsite/walkaround/aerei/Alcioni/Alcioni.html[/url]
(if the link is not working search for "Alcioni” particolari ovvero due C.R.D.A. Cant. Z. 1007 Bis Bideriva con delle livree insolite
Testo di Gabriele Luciani ")

Ciao

Mario

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Re: Cant.Z. 1007 mimetica policiclica: 2 or 3 colors?

Post by Editor » Sat May 18, 2024 4:21 pm

Very interesting photos.

1) In the first photo CANT Z.1007bis 190-3, the colors are the three tone C10A Serie Mimetica colors, not the Tavola X colors. You can clearly see Verde and Marrone mimetico, and the Giallo on these planes almost always appears closer to white in black and white photos while NC4 has a grayish tone.
2) In the second photo CANT Z.1007bis, the colors are (or appear to be) Tavola X NC4 + VOS2, the plane was probably part of the last batch of 105 planes produced by CRDA in 1942. The thing to note is the missing fasci on the nose. This camo scheme would be closest to CMPR D2.
3) CANT Z.1007bis 190-2 mono-deriva, again as in 1) above, the colors are the three tone C10A Serie Mimetica colors.
4) The reason the link to Gabriele's site doesn't work (from this site i.e. BBCodes), is because the site is not secure and we stopped supporting http sites a little while ago (secure sites begin with https in the address bar of your browser). Anyway, I think Gabriele submitted this article to Stormo many years ago and for some reason I didn't post it, although I should have. Its a very interesting short article. Again we see 190-2 but this plane is not the same as in 3), its a replacement machine with the bideriva tail plane configuration: the bi-deriva provided an improved rearward defensive arc and flight stability and was adopted on all Z.1007bis(ter) from MM.23389 onwards. The colors here appear to be NC4+VOS2.

The question that arises from photo 2) is the origins of the camo scheme, if factory applied it originated from CRDA (the last 105 Z.1007 manufactured in 1942) which didn't paint its planes this way (ie., large mottles), it could also be a late IMAM machine, and the other possibility is that the plane had undergone an overhaul or repairs - this might be supported by the lack of fuselage fasce on the nose, the photo being taken probably sometime after July 25, 1943 and in service for sometime. The same applies to the photo in 4) although here, as Gabriele points out we can see the fuselage fasce on a blue disk and plane logo on a dark background - not normally observed on these planes, suggesting a possible overhaul.

Thanks for posting the photos and the link.

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Post by RetiredInKalifornia » Sat May 18, 2024 7:22 pm

"Alcioni” particolari ovvero due C.R.D.A. Cant. Z. 1007 Bis Bideriva con delle livree insolite Testo di Gabriele Luciani comes up as Not Secure http://modellismosalento.it/oldsite/walkaround/aerei/Alcioni/Alcioni.html clicked it & Gabriele Luciani's article with three photos came up just fine. Not going to post the photos but clearly see the above-referenced details.

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Re: Cant.Z. 1007 mimetica policiclica: 2 or 3 colors?

Post by Mario_R » Sun May 19, 2024 7:44 am

Thanks Editor,
1) and 3) Planes in these photos seem to me showing a three colour camouflage, not 2, so likely green/brown/yellow from Serie Mimetica; and yes, the lighter color is close to white, so likely yellow. I'm puzzled by the fact the Decio Zorini identifies only two colours on these planes, Nocciola Chiaro base colour with Verde Oliva Scuro so I expect that he identified the third colour as thinned/blended Verde Oliva Scuro...

Mario

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