ANR Veltro 15-2

Post topics relating to Colors, Camouflage Schemes and Markings of the Regia Aeronautica and ANR
Post Reply
User avatar
Edie1971
Pilota
Posts: 10
Joined: Mon Jul 13, 2020 2:08 pm
Location: Massachusetts

ANR Veltro 15-2

Post by Edie1971 » Tue Jul 14, 2020 6:51 am

Hello everyone, new member here. Don't know why I took so long to join here! After I finish my current project, I'd like to do a Veltro, specifically the one numbered 15-2 from 2a, 1GC that has been shown in a few of the publications that we all use with Adriano Visconti next to it.. It's a really interesting subject, being that it has the 74/75/76 scheme and a prop spiral. Looks like it did at one point have a white band that was over painted. Anybody recreate this one yet? Also in order to do this I'd need to get a decal set for the numbers. Any recommendations?

User avatar
RetiredInKalifornia
Generale di Brigata Aerea
Generale di Brigata Aerea
Posts: 260
Joined: Fri Jun 14, 2019 6:34 pm

My 2016 1/72 Delta2 Build...

Post by RetiredInKalifornia » Tue Jul 14, 2020 9:53 am

...Humbrol & Testors enamels, SKY Models 72034 decals (hard to find alas :frown:) low RLM 74/75 color contrasts partially due to 36% white scale shading, refer to period photos of 74/75/76 finished C.205Vs for contrast checks:

Image

Image

Ancient Delta2 kit nonetheless a nice build, Hasegawa & Italeri C.205V 1/72 & 1/48 kits still available, check whether SKY or Tauro have 1/48 decals for 15-2.
Image
Original Art Rendered 1997

Editor
Site Admin
Site Admin
Posts: 1629
Joined: Thu Jul 24, 2003 3:53 pm
Location: Calgary, AB, CANADA
Contact:

Re: ANR Veltro 15-2

Post by Editor » Tue Jul 14, 2020 10:41 am

Hi Edward,
Welcome to Stormo! and thank you for your post.

I don't think cap. A. Visconti flew 15-2, his unit was 1a Sq., 1o Gruppo CT but Stefano might have more to add here. The two ANR C.205Vs that Visconti is positively identified with are 19-1 and 3-1 with photos.
Vince Tassone

User avatar
Edie1971
Pilota
Posts: 10
Joined: Mon Jul 13, 2020 2:08 pm
Location: Massachusetts

Re: My 2016 1/72 Delta2 Build...

Post by Edie1971 » Tue Jul 14, 2020 10:56 am

RetiredInKalifornia wrote:
Tue Jul 14, 2020 9:53 am
...Humbrol & Testors enamels, SKY Models 72034 decals (hard to find alas :frown:) low RLM 74/75 color contrasts partially due to 36% white scale shading, refer to period photos of 74/75/76 finished C.205Vs for contrast checks:

Image

Image

Ancient Delta2 kit nonetheless a nice build, Hasegawa & Italeri C.205V 1/72 & 1/48 kits still available, check whether SKY or Tauro have 1/48 decals for 15-2.
Nice job there and I knew I wasn't the only person into this plane! I may have to search my spares box and see if I can make something to match!
Last edited by Edie1971 on Tue Jul 14, 2020 10:58 am, edited 1 time in total.

User avatar
Edie1971
Pilota
Posts: 10
Joined: Mon Jul 13, 2020 2:08 pm
Location: Massachusetts

Re: ANR Veltro 15-2

Post by Edie1971 » Tue Jul 14, 2020 10:58 am

Editor wrote:
Tue Jul 14, 2020 10:41 am
Hi Edward,
Welcome to Stormo! and thank you for your post.

I don't think cap. A. Visconti flew 15-2, his unit was 1a Sq., 1o Gruppo CT but Stefano might have more to add here. The two ANR C.205Vs that Visconti is positively identified with are 19-1 and 3-1 with photos.
I know he didn't fly it, but there is a photo of him in front of it with a couple other personnel. The whole Gruppo must have been at that cornfield!

Editor
Site Admin
Site Admin
Posts: 1629
Joined: Thu Jul 24, 2003 3:53 pm
Location: Calgary, AB, CANADA
Contact:

Re: ANR Veltro 15-2

Post by Editor » Tue Jul 14, 2020 11:15 am

Sorry about that, I get so many questions about Visconti's mounts that I assumed you were referring to 15-2 as his plane. The photo in the cornfield next to the taxiway was taken at Vicenza July-August 1944. In late March 1944 ANR LW 74/75/76 colors were applied to C.205Vs with a thin white band (40 cm wide) further aft of the rear fuselage + the tri-color flag centered in the middle of the band + yellow under cowl. On June 5, 1944 the white band and yellow under-cowl were removed on German orders. When you examine the photo of 15-2 next to the taxiway, you can see faint traces of the white band curling underneath the rear fuselage. I haven't seen a build of this plane in 1/48 yet - send us your work.

I agree this is a fascinating subject when you study it and one thing you learn is how often German orders changed compared to the ANR (and RA) which seemed more rationale.
Vince Tassone

User avatar
RetiredInKalifornia
Generale di Brigata Aerea
Generale di Brigata Aerea
Posts: 260
Joined: Fri Jun 14, 2019 6:34 pm

Good "Eagle Eye" Find...

Post by RetiredInKalifornia » Tue Jul 14, 2020 12:05 pm

Editor wrote:
Tue Jul 14, 2020 11:15 am
...The photo in the cornfield next to the taxiway was taken at Vicenza July-August 1944. In late March 1944 ANR LW 74/75/76 colors were applied to C.205Vs with a thin white band (40 cm wide) further aft of the rear fuselage + the tri-color flag centered in the middle of the band + yellow under cowl. On June 5, 1944 the white band and yellow under-cowl were removed on German orders. When you examine the photo of 15-2 next to the taxiway, you can see faint traces of the white band curling underneath the rear fuselage. I haven't seen a build of this plane in 1/48 yet - send us your work...
...Wasn't looking for that whilst building my model, could paint it in but don't wanna risk pulling off decals whilst unmasking. This wasn't my first RLM 74/75/76-colored Italian aircraft subject build, still unsure whether "15" was right color, this FIAT G-55 "what-if" likely my last "RLM Italian" unless prompted to build another whilst building Luftwaffe kits commencing later this year:

Image

Image
Image
Original Art Rendered 1997

Editor
Site Admin
Site Admin
Posts: 1629
Joined: Thu Jul 24, 2003 3:53 pm
Location: Calgary, AB, CANADA
Contact:

Re: ANR Veltro 15-2

Post by Editor » Tue Jul 14, 2020 1:00 pm

Richard your build is fine, the white band was painted over when the photo was taken of 15-2 but you could still see traces of the white band that hadn't been painted over completely. The ANR faithfully followed German orders, however chaotic they were when you compare the Croatian AF that simply ignored orders for the most part, either because of a lack of resources to effect those changes or because they simply didn't want to - the ANR was far more disciplined and they certainly weren't rich in resources either.
Vince Tassone

User avatar
Edie1971
Pilota
Posts: 10
Joined: Mon Jul 13, 2020 2:08 pm
Location: Massachusetts

Re: ANR Veltro 15-2

Post by Edie1971 » Tue Jul 14, 2020 1:26 pm

Editor wrote:
Tue Jul 14, 2020 11:15 am
Sorry about that, I get so many questions about Visconti's mounts that I assumed you were referring to 15-2 as his plane. The photo in the cornfield next to the taxiway was taken at Vicenza July-August 1944. In late March 1944 ANR LW 74/75/76 colors were applied to C.205Vs with a thin white band (40 cm wide) further aft of the rear fuselage + the tri-color flag centered in the middle of the band + yellow under cowl. On June 5, 1944 the white band and yellow under-cowl were removed on German orders. When you examine the photo of 15-2 next to the taxiway, you can see faint traces of the white band curling underneath the rear fuselage. I haven't seen a build of this plane in 1/48 yet - send us your work.

I agree this is a fascinating subject when you study it and one thing you learn is how often German orders changed compared to the ANR (and RA) which seemed more rationale.
I'd like to do it with the band and yellow under cowling as well, since it did have that at some point. I may have to scrounge for the numbers like I mentioned. Thanks for the help guys and I am real glad I'm on here now as well!

User avatar
RetiredInKalifornia
Generale di Brigata Aerea
Generale di Brigata Aerea
Posts: 260
Joined: Fri Jun 14, 2019 6:34 pm

Thanks...

Post by RetiredInKalifornia » Tue Jul 14, 2020 1:42 pm

Editor wrote:
Tue Jul 14, 2020 1:00 pm
Richard your build is fine, the white band was painted over when the photo was taken of 15-2 but you could still see traces of the white band that hadn't been painted over completely. The ANR faithfully followed German orders, however chaotic they were when you compare the Croatian AF that simply ignored orders for the most part, either because of a lack of resources to effect those changes or because they simply didn't want to - the ANR was far more disciplined and they certainly weren't rich in resources either.
...should done better with RLM 74/75 color mixing, too muted. Do believe some "RLM Macchis" were painted single topside color, i.e. RLM 75, Luftwaffe Bf 109Gs & Fw 190As might had been as well, will research that with Luftwaffe builds later this year. ANR order compliance no doubt better because of de facto German occupation well as "next door" to the Reich, Croatia farther southeast wasn't as closely "supervised" :lol:
Image
Original Art Rendered 1997

Editor
Site Admin
Site Admin
Posts: 1629
Joined: Thu Jul 24, 2003 3:53 pm
Location: Calgary, AB, CANADA
Contact:

Re: Thanks...

Post by Editor » Tue Jul 14, 2020 2:53 pm

The RSI was not supervised, the Germans viewed their presence in Italy as helping their ally. Later in August 1944, in Operation Phönix the Germans (with some high ranking ANR officers sympathetic to the Germans) tried to absorb Italian units into a so-called "Italian Flying Legion" which would have placed it completely under German control. This was was forcibly resisted by the ANR and the Germans essentially quit Italy (Richtofen being recalled to Germany) and left the defense of Italian airspace to the Italians except for a few ground attack and recon units.

In English history books the Italians "changed sides" however they always omit that a force of approximately 500,000 loyal to the RSI continued to fight in the north (you should read Lee Ready's Avanti - Mussolini and the Wars of Italy 1919-1945) - the official Italian government was not in the south after the "Italian Armistice" (whatever that means) in 1943, the official government to many Italians at the time continued to exist in the north until the wars end. Sure you had an element of the Italian armed forces that wanted an end to the war in 1943, similar to sentiments in Germany in 1944 when a group of German officers attempted to assassinate Hitler to negotiate a peace with the Allies. In Italy, this group partially succeeded because the Allies were at their doorstep to help them escape, in Germany not so much.
Vince Tassone

User avatar
RetiredInKalifornia
Generale di Brigata Aerea
Generale di Brigata Aerea
Posts: 260
Joined: Fri Jun 14, 2019 6:34 pm

Thanks Again...

Post by RetiredInKalifornia » Tue Jul 14, 2020 6:28 pm

Editor wrote:
Tue Jul 14, 2020 2:53 pm
The RSI was not supervised, the Germans viewed their presence in Italy as helping their ally. Later in August 1944, in Operation Phönix the Germans (with some high ranking ANR officers sympathetic to the Germans) tried to absorb Italian units into a so-called "Italian Flying Legion" which would have placed it completely under German control. This was was forcibly resisted by the ANR and the Germans essentially quit Italy (Richtofen being recalled to Germany) and left the defense of Italian airspace to the Italians except for a few ground attack and recon units.

In English history books the Italians "changed sides" however they always omit that a force of approximately 500,000 loyal to the RSI continued to fight in the north (you should read Lee Ready's Avanti - Mussolini and the Wars of Italy 1919-1945) - the official Italian government was not in the south after the "Italian Armistice" (whatever that means) in 1943, the official government to many Italians at the time continued to exist in the north until the wars end. Sure you had an element of the Italian armed forces that wanted an end to the war in 1943, similar to sentiments in Germany in 1944 when a group of German officers attempted to assassinate Hitler to negotiate a peace with the Allies. In Italy, this group partially succeeded because the Allies were at their doorstep to help them escape, in Germany not so much.
...True, RSI wasn't "supervised" by the Germans, meant that sarcastically. Were southern Italian forces "supervised" by the Allies, forbidden to engage in direct combat with RSI forces? Co-Belligerent air units methinks didn't.
Image
Original Art Rendered 1997

Stefano
Comandante di Stormo
Comandante di Stormo
Posts: 141
Joined: Sun Nov 12, 2006 2:40 pm
Location: Padua, Italy

Re: ANR Veltro 15-2

Post by Stefano » Fri Jul 17, 2020 10:36 am

To complete what said Vince about the 15-2, it was the MM 92276 and it seems it was flown by S.Ten. Aurelio Morandi (at right of Visconti in the photo) on 19 April 1945. That day, Morandi shot at and badly damaged a B-24 (s/n 42-50428, 859th BS, Cpt Sutton) near the Swiss border, but was hit by return fire and killed. The Liberator was soon after shot down by Morandi's companions: Ten. Oddone Colonna and Serg.M. Brunello. The crew jumped and went PoW. The kill was shared by the three pilots.
Aurelio Morandi was the last of the 210 ANR personnel dead in WWII.
Stefano

User avatar
Edie1971
Pilota
Posts: 10
Joined: Mon Jul 13, 2020 2:08 pm
Location: Massachusetts

Re: ANR Veltro 15-2

Post by Edie1971 » Tue Jul 28, 2020 7:30 am

Stefano wrote:
Fri Jul 17, 2020 10:36 am
To complete what said Vince about the 15-2, it was the MM 92276 and it seems it was flown by S.Ten. Aurelio Morandi (at right of Visconti in the photo) on 19 April 1945. That day, Morandi shot at and badly damaged a B-24 (s/n 42-50428, 859th BS, Cpt Sutton) near the Swiss border, but was hit by return fire and killed. The Liberator was soon after shot down by Morandi's companions: Ten. Oddone Colonna and Serg.M. Brunello. The crew jumped and went PoW. The kill was shared by the three pilots.
Aurelio Morandi was the last of the 210 ANR personnel dead in WWII.
Stefano
He was flying that plane in 1945? I thought all ANR Fighter units had BF-109's after July 1944?

Editor
Site Admin
Site Admin
Posts: 1629
Joined: Thu Jul 24, 2003 3:53 pm
Location: Calgary, AB, CANADA
Contact:

Re: ANR Veltro 15-2

Post by Editor » Tue Jul 28, 2020 2:37 pm

Edie1971 wrote:
Tue Jul 28, 2020 7:30 am
Stefano wrote:
Fri Jul 17, 2020 10:36 am
To complete what said Vince about the 15-2, it was the MM 92276 and it seems it was flown by S.Ten. Aurelio Morandi (at right of Visconti in the photo) on 19 April 1945. That day, Morandi shot at and badly damaged a B-24 (s/n 42-50428, 859th BS, Cpt Sutton) near the Swiss border, but was hit by return fire and killed. The Liberator was soon after shot down by Morandi's companions: Ten. Oddone Colonna and Serg.M. Brunello. The crew jumped and went PoW. The kill was shared by the three pilots.
Aurelio Morandi was the last of the 210 ANR personnel dead in WWII.
Stefano
He was flying that plane in 1945? I thought all ANR Fighter units had BF-109's after July 1944?
2o Gruppo re-equipped with Bf.109s in June 1944 and 1o Gruppo didn't lose (at least temporarily) their C.205Vs and G.55s until after August 25 1944 during Operation Phönix (on 8 August 1944 there were 14 C.205Vs and 18 G.55s available to 1o Gruppo). In October 1944 the Germans then (incredibly) dismantled the C.205Vs and G.55s at Vicenza - contrary to popular belief the ANR (its pilots) did not destroy their aircraft, it was the Germans. 1o Gruppo then began training and conversion to the Bf.109 in November 1944 and it wasn't until 1945 that it became operational on the type. Stefano is on vacation but I'm sure he'll clarify what he meant.
Vince Tassone

Post Reply