STORMO! Forums

Hi all, and Happy New Year! from sunny New Zealand.

This query might annoy some people who may think it is not worth an answer, but it is bugging me.

Almost all current and recent accounts and depictions of the SM 79 Corsa aircraft show them with a green fuselage flash. This seems logical and appropriate for the Italian national colours. However, I am still convinced that it was not the same colour as the Verde of the national insignia (rudder stripe), as it shows a different (in most cases) b/w tonal response in photographs. Two other strands of 'evidence' might indicate that the flash was actually dark blue: A, most SM prototypes (SM 73, 75, 79 etc) are shown with a dark blue flash of near identical format to those on the Corsa aircraft; B, in Giorgio Apostolo's 'Profile 89' booklet, the colour plate shows the Transatlantico (ex-Corsa) 'I_BRUN' with a blue flash.

In the first instance, would SIAI/Savoi Marchetti not have liked to have seen their 'corporate' colours retained on the race aircraft, for prestige and marketing motives? In the second instance it would seem unlikely that such an eminent Italian aviation historian should have let this pass if incorrect?

Anyhow, I would appreciate some considered views about this or, even better, some contemporary evidence such as based on illustrations/promotional material etc.

This is not purely a 'devil's advocate' piece!

Best wishes,

GrahamB

Hi GrahamB,
Click on this link and scroll to page 15.

http://www.aerei-italiani.net/Marco_Rig ... Nov.05.pdf

There is a nice photo of SM79 in Corsa colours.
Judging by the shade of green, I would say that it is the same colour as the green on the flag. Therfore, my choice would be VERDE BANDIERE 9 (FLAG GREEN 9) FS 34062 as the right match for your model.
Hope this helps,
Vincent.

A Happy New Year to you from the almost exact opposite of the globe. Opposite is also the weather, here is snowing!

I think your is not an annoying question! The book of Luciano Spaggiari & Carlo D'Agostino "SM-79 Il gobbo maledetto" (Il Castello, Milan, 1979) thoroughly describes the S.79 Corsa which participated to the Istres-Damascus-Paris race. Here is a translated abstract:

The main colour of these aircraft was garnet red; the nose and a strip which, starting from it, ran along the fuselage were slate green bordered of silver; silver were also engine cowlings (Note: these were actually finely grinded natural metal) and wing leading edge. The rudders wore the Italian tricolour, with Savoy crest in the upper part of middle band. Identification codes were the "I" letter followed by race number, both black in white field, and placed on fuselage, upper and under wing surfaces. Three green mice, which were the badge of 12° Stormo, were painted on the fuselage as mascot or as a way to say "We'll show you green mice" (an Italian idiomatic phrase meaning 'we'll show you something impossible') to our opponents.

"Slate" is a rather elusive colour among green, blue and grey, so anybody could be right. The colour pattern was kept also for the following Rome-Rio de Janeiro race, only the codes were changed. Here is a contemporary colour poster:



I think I have some other similar contemporary colour images buried somewhere among my books; as far as I remember, the colours are quite the same.
I hope this is enough for you, but if you have other questions, please tell me.

Best wishes.

Stefano

Kia ora Stefano!

This is excellent news and confirms my suspicions that the band/flash was not the same as Verde Bandiera - this is pretty obvious in b/w. A dark (possibly blueish) grey-green is the way to go - I'll see if there are a few colour matches that might fit this description, in FS system or Methuen, to put forward as possible (but unprovable) candidates. [6 January - I quite like the look of colour no.9, verde azzuro scuro, on the Vitochart, as it comes out of my printer - possibly the same as or very similar to 'Verde Mimetico 2'.)

Also with regards to your quotation, looking at various photos in Ali d'Italia, Warpaint, etc etc confirms another of my observations/doubts - that at least on some of the aircraft, for some of the time, the edging to the 'green' was unpainted metal or alluminio, not white. Illustrations showing white leading edge flaps are also in error in showing this colour, instead of aluminium.

As for the colour of those mice..... Definitely a pale colour that responds darker in some prints, not Verde Bandiera or as dark as the band, as shown in many illustrations. Possibly a pale blue-green like the early RAF duck-egg green/Eau de Nil version of Sky?

The illustration is very nice and it is interesting that the cross in the Savoia Marchetti emblem is shown as red - in my sources, such as 'Le Ali del Littorio' and 'Regia Aeronautica: periodo prebellico e fronti occidentali' this is usually shown as either white or dark blue on a light blue ground. Is this an artist's error, or artist's licence? [The Corsa aircraft had the dark cross - which makes Richard Caruana's decision to paint white-crosses on his Corsas in the Warpaint book very peculiar. ]

Thanks again for your supportive post. I'm still battling with my Italian Kits/Classic Airframe 1/48 conversion - plenty of work to do on the tail end. No-one, apart from Don Greer's illustrations on the front and back covers of the SM79 'In Action' has got the shape and configuration of the rudder/elevator correct in scale drawings in spite of the evidence staring them in the face in form of excellent photographs. Another posting I think.

Cheers

GrahamB

According to Methuen Handbook, Garnet Red is 11E8, similar to FS 10076. Slate Grey is 3F2. In British Standard Colour, Slate is BS 634, close to FS 34096, and there is also a Light Slate Grey BS 639 close to 34159.
I own a copy of original Vitochart chips. You’re right about Verde Azzurro Scuro 9, it is similar to Verde Mimetico 2, but a little more bluish to it and to FS 34092. It is halfway between Methuen 25F4 and 26F4. I think it’s too much blue to represent a race green. Not to mention, "garnet red" and slate green" are merely descriptive terms. Let's see the official documents. Indeed, I’ve found something interesting in Borgiotti & Gori’s “Il Savoia Marchetti S.M.79 Sparviero” (USSMA, Rome, 1984). In late Summer 1936, when Italy decided to participate to the “Blue Ribbon” New York-Paris race (later replaced by Istres-Damascus-Paris), Italian team leader Col. Attilio Biseo asked, among the S.79 modifications, to paint the aircraft in Rosso Fuoco (fire red) (p. 14). The reason of it is that red was the colour previously assigned to Italy by International Car Race Committee (see Alfa Romeo and, later, Ferrari racing cars). If you want to have an idea of Italian Rosso Corsa (race red), take a look here: http://www.ams.vr.it/dat/Imm_Aero.htm. The first ’79, MM 355, Bu.No. 51, modified as S.79C, had the nose and a “flame” along the fuselage temporarily painted in blue, in honour to SIAI firm colour, and this justifies the artwork in Profile 89. After official RA disposition, however, it was later turned to green to recall Italian flag. (caption at p. 11 – the photo is the same to that at bottom left in p. 3 of Profile 89). The aircraft were finished with the following paints (p. 16 and 26):
Arson SISI Giomar Avio 3217 Rosso
Arson SISI Giomar Avio 3216 Verde
Arson SISI Giomar Avio Verde Chiaro (light green, for the mice)
DUCO Aeronautica Nero Fuoco (fire black -!-)
DUCO Aeronautica Bianco Zinco (zinc white)
DUCO Aeronautica (?) Bianco Titanio (titanium white)
All colours were gloss-varnished or polished.
The Ratier propellers were overpainted with a light color (p. 26). Although the latter was not specified, note that usually SIAI painted the front face of propellers in a light blue similar to FS 35526, or light grey (at least later in 1940). The same colour was applied to spinners.
The following is a catalogue of Arson SISI aircraft paints in 1937-38, where Rosso 3217 and Verde 3219 are present, and this could lead to think that they were the same colours used for rudder flag and tubing…



…but a painting guide by SIAI, dated 21 February 1940, shows that, at least that year, Rosso and Verde used for flag had other identifications codes.



Were they different hues or the same colours recoded? Probably we’ll never know. Although Arson SISI and DUCO paint manufacturers are still in activity, old catalogues sadly had been lost.

The edging of the green in the fuselage was not natural metal, as the fuselage behind the cockpit was covered by fabric, and images don’t show variation of shade between the two parts. Aluminium paint is not listed above, titanium white is a ‘pure’ white (at least on the walls of my home), so the borders were painted in zinc white. I cannot tell you how this colour was, but it should have been a sort of greyish or metalized white (paint + zinc powder?). Instead, it is sure that engine cowlings and wing leading edges and roots were polished natural metal.

I’d better prefer a more rich green for the mice, in the area of FS 34230-34540 or so. In my opinion, the green colour of them was very distinctive, and could have not been dilute into a greenish grey.

Now, let’s examine the pennant and try to guess the colours.



The pennant was double-outlined white (outer, sure) and blue (inner, probable). The S.79 logo was a dark colour outlined yellow (probable) and had as background the Verde 3216 (sure). The anchor was yellow (sure) in a blue circle (sure). The writing “SAVOIA MARCHETTI” was yellow too (probable). The pennant cross was a dark colour, possibly the same of the logo, and its background was pale blue (sure). As the logo and cross were not green, they should have been black, red and/or dark blue. Which colour?
A photo took with an orange/red filter comes in help.



Here the red appears much lighter than green, but also the logo and the cross do, suggesting they were red too!

Any doubt?

Stefano

Hi Stefan,

amazing work, and thanks for finding some detailed information on the colours. As I have the Methuen book the garnet red was easily tracked down anyway, and it is certainly a good basis to work on - after all, someone who uses the term 'garnet red' seems an intelligent source and it is surely not to be confused with the brighter, more scarlet fire-red or 'Ferrari' racing colour (see my previous post on the Rosso Corsa issue). Still, it is really not clear, then, whether the bright red, or the more wine-coloured ('Bordeaux') 'garnet red' was used - the eye-witness suggests the latter. It is also interesting that the 11E8 Methuen colour is close to some model paint colours (Misterkit and WEM I think) for 'Marrone Mimetico 2' ! mmmmm...

As for the slate green, I did not consider the 'slate grey' route, believing that a darker, richer, perhaps blueish-green was being described, although the British Dark Slate Grey may be a starting point for hue.

You are correct about the aluminium/ white stripe - that is why I included the paint name alluminio when refering to the fuselage stripe, knowing that the rear fuselage was fabric covered. The putative zinc-white paint on the stripe certainly does not seem as 'pure' as that on the Savoia emblem.

I shall have to study my copy of the 'Colori e schemi..' that includes the paint tables that you included.

Your analysis of the emblem seems reasonable and would concur with the illustration in your previous post - as regards the red cross.

All this really now leaves me a a state of confusion with regard to the main colours red/green since it seems to be suggested by you that they really were the same as the rudder colours, if Savoia Marchetti were using only the 'standard' Arson SISI colours from the list for these special Corsas! You seem to be sure that SM used these colours - quoted directly from the source? The issue about the blues is also relevant here - and excellent find about the dark blue - what aircraft was this? The Arson SISI catalogue list only shows one blue, yet probably two were used (including the light blue on the Savoia emblem) - unless the emblem was applied as a decal?

Thanks again for your hard work on this - I'm sure that between the two of us we have at least brought some fresh ideas (and evidence) into the colours of these handsome aircraft. I'll have to go away and think about your post in more detail and try and come to some satisfactory conclusion.

Best wishes

Graham

Well, Marrone Mimetico 2 was a reddish brown (FS30109) and I think it was not suitable for race purpose. Rather, I vote for a slightly dark red like FS 11136, which leans to a “garnet” tone. It seems it was really a flag red. I’ve found, in facts, another hint in an article by Umberto Postiglioni in an Aerei magazine issue of 1975. Postiglioni was to be one of the authors of “Colori e Schemi Mimetici…”, and stated:

[In 1937-38] Arson SISI produced [at the same time] at least two kinds of flag red, the 3217 and 3228…

This answers to my previous question: they were two reds with (slight) different hues, but the same purpose: to represent the flag red. The 3217 was possibly darker, and this gave to the eyewitness the impression of a “garnet” colour.
Following a logical line, and considering that the “white” border was not so white as it seemed aluminium, it is possible that the colours wrapping the aircraft were conceived to represent a “toned down” flag, so the green could not be so bright. In the following image it happened the contrary as in my previous post: a green filter clears the “pure” green and darkens the “pure” red of the rudder.



Mice seems quite white, but the red and green of fuselage are not so modified, as they were not so pure (as green) and/or bright (as red). Perhaps for this reason, the green gave the impression of “slate” to the eyewitness as above, in contrast to the brightness of the rudder one. Here I vote for something similar to FS34096, but it’s only a guess.

Answering your questions, the data on the colours are by official documents. I can also tell you the amount of each paint per aircraft: red 72 kilograms, green 10 kgs, black 4 kgs, white (not specified) 3 kgs.

The aircraft with blue side was to be coded “I-6” and I-TOMO, but it was re-painted well before the race.

The emblem was painted, it wasn't a decal (note it was over a hatch). The different colours came probably by other manufacturers.

Best Wishes
Stefano

Hi Stefano,

this reply seems to clarify things better - two reds, two greens, as I suspected. You may be right about the mice - probably a light,bright lime green.

The Marrone Mimetico 2 issue was only an observation but was intriguing.

Also, thanks for the information about the identity of the 'blue' Corsa - I guess this is the aircraft on page 30 (top) of Ali d'Italia, as well as page 34 (middle) - it has the alluminio/bare metal of the inner wing leading edge/forward wing-fuselage fillet not meeting the lower white/alluminio fuselage stripe as well as lacking the small round window above the hatch.

Well, I guess I'll endeavour to get my model finished and painted - have been bogged down with several projects and been severely afflicted by 'advanced modeller's syndrome', trying to do too much correction and detailing - for little or no result.

Anyhow, there are plenty of other colour issues to discuss - like four-colour scheme (definite) on Fiat G50 prototype, some SM79s (definite) and SM81s; origin of Marrone Mimetico 2 use on Fiat Cr42 and G50 (no sign of this colour in Vitochart, compiled by a Fiat employee) etc etc.

KIA ORA!

GrahamB

An update to the discussion. Recently I had a contact with Italian researcher Pierluigi Moncalvo, who gave me the following images of S.79Cs. The first had been taken with a red filter, and the red areas appear white.



You can see that the cross of the pennant appears white too, now. Strangely enough, the "white" borders of green flame on the fuselage are darker than the edges of "I" and hyphen. This confirms that they were actually silver, or a metallic grey, not white. The dark strip at wingroot was a rubber anti-slipping path (only on portside).



Another image, taken with a yellow-green filter confirms the light green colours of the mice.



Pierluigi also noticed me that the more logical colours for the logo were those of SIAI (blue and light blue) plus those of Italian flag, as represented in the livery. So we changed the yellow of the anchor and writing into the silver grey, as the tone of them and the flame borders are very similar in b/w photo (previously, I had taken the yellow by an old artist's impression). That solved the sense of "too much colours" I had. This is the new hypothesis for the logo:



And this is the updated Artist's impression of the aircraft:



Both artworks are by Pierluigi Moncalvo.
In my previous posts I stated that spinners were light colour (grey or blue) as front side of propeller blades. This was true for military S.79s, which had probably both in light blue during early stages of War. Contemporary photos show that Corsa aircraft had polished metal spinners, while there is still no proof that blades were light blue at time. I apologize.
Another info: Pierluigi told me that, according to well known researcher and artist Marco Gueli, the Rosso Corsa of the Caproni Reggiane Procellaria, which was projected to participate to Istres-Damascus-Paris, was FS 11136. The S.79s red was probably the same.

Stefano

-Edit 16 March 2009-

Hi Stefano,

only looked in on the Stormo site for the first time in many months and found this excellent post. The new photos and inferred colours for the aircraft and Savoia emblem look very convincing.

I think the effort that you and Pierluigi have put into this are appreciated by everyone - such an iconic colour scheme deserves to be properly deciphered and recorded.

Best wishes,

Graham

Gentlemen,

my name is Ugo Crisponi, new in this forum. Recently I have completed a small serie of SM.79s in Regia Aeronautica liveries. Two of these are S.79 Corsa. I enclose a few shots of these artworks.

Welcome Ugo,

Thank you for posting your excellent profiles!
We're happy our discussion inspired your artworks, and we hope to see here more of them in the future.

Ciao

Stefano

Thanks Stefano. This forum seems to be the most accurate and serious on italian subjects. A must to post here

BTW, here is a snapshot of another Sparviero:








Kind regards,
Ugo

No need for me to say welcome ... but welcome anyway Ugo Ugo is a gifted and talented artist. Thank you for your post.

Thanks Vince

Here is a profile based on a well known image but till today always reproduced in color profile with a incorrect schema. After a long exchange of opinions with several historians, this one is the most probable color schema for this CQ+HO Sparviero.



p.s. underwing Balkenkreuz is yet missing in the drawing