Italian "Aces" - Confirmed Kills

[Alex T.]

hi everybody!

the topic is quite interesting, even if in some spots it became too hot and veered from the original heading..
Somehow someway this is one is one of those potentially endless debates that usually ends up in a dusty cloud..
As we all know history is written by the winners, and it's very hard to change once written, expecially if it goes against the winners themselves. In my humble opinion the debate about the scores of fighter pilots is quite sterile, first of all because every country had their own rules (the high scores of Luftwaffe pilots are due to the fact that they had no combat tours, they basically fought their way thru the war, and stopped only for short license time or because of battle wounds), and often some of them were "adjusted" for propaganda reasons. Many air force didnt consider the probable or the shot down without witnesses, or without guncamera footage. I honestly think the pilots who went up there (apart for the americans, god bless 'em..) didnt do it to chalk up more victories on their logs, but to do their duty. Ironically the most skillfull pilots (japanese, italian, czechoslovakian) are today the forgotten ones, also the czech and polish themselves, way superior to the british standard (polish pilots sustained one of the most difficult training syllabus ever!), were often made target of the british humour, just because they didnt do the effort of learning english.
Another point is that talking always and only about fighter pilots is quite unfair, I once met by chance a former Regia Aeronautica pilot who flew with Marsupiali over Jugoslavia for ferry missions, and his stories (especially the one that gave him the medaglia d'onore) were way more thrilling than the fighter pilots one.

And Vince, I absolutely agree about your point, there's no culture for it here, unfortunately the heavy toll of fascism is still strong here, people prefer to think about the next soccer game and such naive amenities....

Alex

[Vincent Biondi]

Nice post Alex.
You are so right, especially about the Polish and Czech pilots, who were the highest scoring in the Battle of Britain and NEVER get the proper credit for their efforts.
Instead, the only time they are mentioned is their reluctance to learn English.
I once met a Polish vet years ago, who flew for the RAF and his answer was straight and to the point .." We're here to shot down Germans, not learn English!"...
Anyway, glad to here that there are some people, who catch my drift.
Thanks,
Vincent.

[Alex T.]

Thanks Vincent, I call mine "historical good sense"
I also understand your "mission", but trust me, it would be easier to spread the knowledge here if Regia Aeronautica and ANR were a soccer team or a new cell phone brand...
I'm not saying it's impossible, but it's very hard. Long topic and no time now, must run to work!

Alex

P.S.
I was reading my previous post and I just realised that my writing skills become embarassingly low after midnight

[jack48]

Alex, Vince -

What started me on this topic was material from Jan Safarik, who is Czech himself. I hope it is OK to provide a link to his site:

http://aces.safarikovi.org/

Alex's comments are well taken. They give one pause especially when you consider that the RAF provided an opportunity for pilots of all nations to serve. To be sure the Czech and Polish pilots acquitted themselves extremely well in the Battle of Britain and thereafter in RAF service. I mentioned Don Gentile previously. Were it not for the RAF - Gentile might have never served as a fighter pilot at all.

How ironic it is that Goering referred to Gentile and Godfrey as the Italian and Englishman I believe and more ironic still that Gentile became an American Army Airforce pilot ONLY after the US entered the war and absorbed Eagle Squadron units and The Flying Tigers which I dare say was not well received by any of these units. How many of these men would have been passed over from US service otherwise. Was it Chuck Yeager who said words to the effect that there are no guarantees in life only opportunities?

IMO it is more than fair to say that pilots like the men of the RA and Czech, Polish, American and others in RAF service succeeded in spite of the limitations associated with events not because of them.

[telsono]

Right now I am reading both the earlier Christopher Shores and newer Brian Cull books on Malta. These books to me give a fair treatment to both sides in these actions. During the same dogfight situational awareness can be lost easily. It was noted by some American pilots who flew with Witold Urbanowicz in china that the man had supreme situational awareness and remembered things that others didn't. This was probably becuase the aircraft the Poles trainined on didn't have radios and they had to look around to see where people were. During a battle multiple pilots may have shot at the same aircraft and not have seen the other aircraft making similar attacks. This was a common source of over counting. We may never know the true counts for these pilots, both sides were subject to it.

My family is of mixed heritage, my father's side Italian and Polish. My Great grandfather came from Calabria trained as a stonemason. He found work very easily, first on the base of the Statue of Liberty (the part they didn't have to fix!) and the Elephant and Lion Houses at the Bronx Zoo.

I have enjoyed this discussion and look forward to some more additions to it.

Mike T.

[telsono]

I would like to throw a few examples of how the "fog of war" obscures the reality of the situation. Let's take the first two weeks of fighting over Malta. June 11 through 23, 1940. The British claimed 4 aerial victories 2 x M.C. 200's and 2 x S.79's. The Italians claimed none. Italian operational losses during this period were 1 x M.C. 200 and 2 x S.79. One of the S.79 losses was trying to land after a weather aborting mission, the aircraft exploded just prior to landing. Here's an expansion of that time frame from the Shores, Cull and Malizia book "Malta: The Hurricane Years 1940-41".

06/11/40 Flg. Off Woods claims a "probable kill" on a M.C. 200 as he saw the engine smoking as the aircraft dove towards the water after he fired with a full deflection shot on it.
Tenente Giuseppe Pesola took evasive action in his M.C. 200 from the attack by a defending Gladiator. When he hastily opened up the throttle smoke was emitted by the engine and he tried to use the Macchi's superior dive speed to avoid the more manueverable Gladiator. He made it back to base with minor damage.

06/11/40 Five hours after the initial raid a lone S.79 approached Malta. Two Gladiators scrambled against this aircraft. Flg. Off, Waters got within range of this aircraft and believed that he had shot it down.
This was a photo recon S.79 checking on the results of the previous raid. The defending aircraft caused it to take defensive action, aborting its mission and returning to Sicily safely.

06/12/40 Two S.79 bomber taking off from Sicily encountered bad weather return to base, one explodes attempting to land.

06/21/40 Two Gladiators were damaged in separate landing accidents. Eventually both planes were combined to create one flyable aircraft.

06/22/40 Flg. Off. Burges claims to have shot down a S.79 that was previously damaged by Flg. Off. Woods. The aircraft was seen to crash off of Kalafrana and one member of the crew was rescued.
A patrolling Cant Z.506B reports that this S.79 was shot down by anti-aircraft.

06/23/40 Flg. Off. Burges shots down a M.C. 200 flown by Serg. Magg. Lamberto Molinelli in an old fashion dogfight. Flg. Off. The Italiain pilot bails out and is captured. Woods damages his Gladiator on landing when he collides with a "Queen Bee" target drone. This aircraft was repaired.
Italian records claim this aircraft shot down by anti-aircraft.

This is just to get a picture of what reports are like. Some of the German reports come out more suspect eventhough many times they had support of the wing men in the claims! Nobody was keeping check on where the friendly aircraft were during these furballs. Italian pilots seem to be more conservative on claiming victories, but seem not to accept that they can be shot down by enemy aircraft.

Mike T.

[JeffZ]

Great post, there's no doubt there was over claiming, particularly the German and some British claims seem to be exaggerated in general.