Italian "Aces" - Confirmed Kills

[mapalm]

Hi all,

I did not read (due to cancellation) the original discussion. The topic is extremely interesting, even if a bit difficult to handle for a series of reason.

But I do agree with SuperAereo when he wrote:

...
on the rare occasion this has been done the result invariably showed wild overclaiming,
...
National pride has nothing to do with it.

Right now working on the history of a Gruppo Caccia in the MTO, and trying to do it at my best (also crossing the sources of the two sides) I can say that the overclaim was then quite common, a real and inevitable conclusion. Then.

I'm not expressing judgements on published works, more or less known, but if they are based only on the documentation of just one of the involved sides, than is quite difficult to "certificate" them as based on history.

ciao

[Vincent Biondi]

Hello Mapalm,
Excuse me but National Pride has a lot to do with it.
Italians (in Italy) have no idea of the jokes, slander and racism, that Italains who live abroad have gone through in the last 65 years! I think they have some romantic view of themselves, and this couldn't be further from the truth.
Here in Canada, all you need to do is go to a Scale Model contest and the stereotypes are still alive and well!
Overclaiming existed in every Air Force, Allied and Axis alike.
Cross referencing is also hard since often dates from all the Air Forces did not match. The Allies, especially the USAAF, usually spelled the name of the city wrong, or did not identify enemy aircraft correctly, in particular ANR and Luftwaffe ME109s, thus not coinciding with the Italian claims.
Also, the biggest handicap that the Regia Aeronautica had to face was RACISM on the part of the Anglo-American Air Forces, especially the RAF!
There are many examples when RAF aircraft were shot down by Italian pilots and RAF pilots claimed to have been shot down by a German pilot instead.
I have an example of what I mean. This is taken from the book"Quelli Del Gatto Nero", by Nicola Malizia:
RAF Pilot, Sergeant George Weaver of the 185th Squadron flying a Spitfire V over Scoglitti Sicily in September 1942, stated that he had been shot down by a BF 109. He turned out to be a liar and a bad judge of aircraft when in fact it was Ten. Paolo Damiani of the 352 Sq. in a Macchi 202 that shot him down!
Weaver was taken prisoner and later after Sicily had been liberated, Weaver was released. He lied to his superiors, citing he had problems with his motor and was not shot down.
RAF pilots were ashamed to admit they had been shot down by an ITALIAN PILOT!
Another example is the Canadian Ace George Beurling, who claimed to have shot down an Italian Reggiane 2001, the one belonging to Aldo Quarantotti on July 12, 1942. Beurling was on lone patrol, so he had no witnesses to this claim. In fact, according to references in the book "Stormi D'Italia", by G. Lazzati, Quarantotti, after just arriving from a mission over Malta, found out that one of his fellow pilots was missing so he went out looking for the downed pilot. When he reached the area were he was last reported down, a violent storm was in the area and Quarantotti was lost while flying low over the water and not shot down.
This claim by Beurling is still on his list and has not been disputed and even if so, it will never be removed, regardless of cross referencing or whatever.
A few years ago, noted Canadian Aviation Historian B. Greenhous, wrote a book covering WW1 Canadian Ace Billy Bishop, showing him to be a liar and fraud and that his official score was not the 72 claims, but in fact closer to the 22 to 27 mark.
This caused an uproar, with Canadian historians, veterans associations and scholars.
But, have they changed his score? Of course not, because of National Pride. Whether its right or wrong, it has more to do with respect for a brave pilot who fought for a cause.
Lets try to focus on that for a change.
I have many more examples of this kind of behaviour.
So, what was the biggest obstacle the Regia Aeronautica Pilots had to face, RACISM on the part of the Anglo American Forces!
Vincent.

[JeffZ]

I don't mean to be nosy and I agree Italian servicemen have been treated unfairly in the miltary histories and I commend your efforts with the site to recitfy this in some way but what was contained in the superAereo posts ? (i'm kinda catching the tail end of this discussion)

[Editor]

I don't mean to be nosy and I agree Italian servicemen have been treated unfairly in the miltary histories and I commend your efforts with the site to recitfy this in some way but what was contained in the superAereo posts ? (i'm kinda catching the tail end of this discussion)

Although Superaero has contributed some useful information in other posts, he used inappropriate language in regard to the claims of Franco Lucchini which offended some posters and in which I received complaints. The claims of Aces, as Vince Biondi has pointed out in his artcile will always be controversial and will always be open to debate, however there is no room on this forum for insulting remarks that may turn-off posters. I welcome continued debate about the claims of Italian pilots, however please use moderate language when trying to make a point. Lets be respectful. Thank you all for your cooperation.

[mapalm]

Vincent,

You pointed out a very impressive and topic argument.
But first of all I want to tell you that my grandpa was twice in Ellis Island, in 1911 and in 1920. My father left very soon is place of birth and lived is all life far from it. My brother is right now overseas... Sorry this certificate of family status of mine, but in a certain way, maybe, I can get closer, if not understand, that sense of proudness you’re talking about.
But you’re right I was born and grow up in Italy, in my hometown and I can cultivate it without any negative reverberation on my life. This is a privilege.

But to meet stereotypes, if of this we’re talking, we don’t need to go to a contest, or to talk about aviation... just switch on the TV, or open the most of newspaper.

Cross referencing is not that bad when you’ve something to cross. Mistakes in spelling or wrong plane identification are part of the game, from both side. Even the two episode of Damiani and Quaranotti you wrote about are and remain episode, it does not matter the bad or good faith of the actors.

And in a smaller scale the same episode of Greenhous you just mentioned happened here: SuperAereo doubted (don’t know in which terms, but I know him as a kind person) about Lucchini score and we had an uproar

In the end I’ve to say that I totally disagree with your idea of the Regia Aeronautica biggest obstacle...
I had the opportunity to meet some Regia vets and according to their memories their lack of tactical training, of gunnery training, of appropriate machine were reasons much more felt than any kind of a totally unknown racism (and consider that in all of their memories the relationship with American pilot was something very close to the brotherhood).


ciao

[JeffZ]

Thanks Vince. I read Vincent's artilce and found it interesting. I've always wondered why the scores of Italian pilots were relatively low, but why do you think Italian reseachers would omit the shared victories of Italian pilots in their total scores?

[Editor]

Thanks Vince. I read Vincent's artilce and found it interesting. I've always wondered why the scores of Italian pilots were relatively low, but why do you think Italian reseachers would omit the shared victories of Italian pilots in their total scores?

Good question. I had a similar chat with Alessandro a little while ago and I think the answer to that question, partly, has to do with Fascism being born in Italy and the fear of it returning in some shape, way or form. I don’t believe fascism was good for Italy or the countries that adopted the system of government. Ancient Rome grew up as an 'elected' Republic and collapsed as an Imperial power. ‘Autocratic’ rule is inherently inefficient and destructive. So I think Italians in general tend to lessen the achievements of the Fascist period. This explains in my opinion, partly, the one sided view of Italian arms in WWII.

[Nino]

Vincent,

I enjoyed reading your previous response regarding the false flight records of Canadian & RAF pilots. What gets me is that the Folgore & Veltro still don't get the proper recognition as a top class fighter!
I can vouch for Racsism here in Australia. Although i was born here, my parents were born in Italy and migrated here in the early 60.'s bringing with them all the great traditions from the motherland. At School my friends and i were ridiculed for many years because of our family background & traditions. In australia, you will find many italian-australians stick together and are very proud of there heritage and a lot of us including myself still consider ourselves to be Italian even though we are proud to be Australian born!! Both of my grandfathers served in the Army and Navy during WW2 and my great grandfather served in WW1 figthing the Austrians. For many of us including my friends, we understand the hardships that were endured during and after the second world war by many italians who stayed or migrated from Italy.

I have always felt italian pride even though i was born here and hence my interest in Italian actions during the second world war particularly, given my families history in military conflicts.. It is true that Fasicsm was not the answer for Italy, neither entering the war as they were never really prepared to cope for such a large scale war effort. Despite all of this i am still proud of the brave attitude the italians showed during many phases of there campaigns despite fighting with substandard equipment, lack of leadership & usually overwhelming odds especially on the ground in North Africa.
I know this is gettng off the topic a bit but i felt compelled to respond to some degree.
As Vince kindly noted earlier, we must respect the actions of those who gave there lives for a cause at the time whic to them, seemed justified!

[Vincent Biondi]

Bravo Antonio!
You know exactly what I am talking about, since you are also the son of Italian immigrants, born in Australia, but brought up in the Italian tradition.
As I mentioned before, many Italians in Italy have absolutely no idea the ridicule, jokes and bad press, that Italian-Canadians and Italian- Australians have had to put up with since the end of the war!
In the past, when I've corresponded with Italians and I tell them what we went through, they always sound surprised.
Its no wonder that some individuals in Italy are basically clueless, since their book stores aren't stocked with books written by English and American authors who for the most part denigrate Italy's war efforts.
Getting back on topic, I have a general rule that I stick to when it comes to making comparisons. I compare apples to apples, not the apples to organes. When I research WW2 ACES, everything has to be on the same playing field.
That is why, when I started to compare the scores of Alled airmen and discovered that their totals included shared victories, I finally got a sense of relief to know that Italian airmen, despite having in some cases aircraft with less fire power, were on equal terms.
Up until I discovered that Allied scores included shared kills, the comparison with Italian airmen was not, and Italian historians only credit the individual scores.
Earlier in this post JEFFZ asked as to why and I think that Vince hit the nail on the head with the right answer.
I am not a revisonist, nor an expert on aviation history. I try to do as much research as I can, given the tools and sources available.
However, I will continue to stick to my rule of comparing apples to apples and on this subject the rules have to apply to both sides.
In your last post, you wonder why the Folgore and Veltro still don't get the proper recognition they deserve?
Personally, there aren't enough books in English written about the exploits and combat records of the 202/205.
Perhaps, if some of the Italian books were translated in English, one in particular comes to mind, "Quelli del Cavallino Rampante" (Those of the Prancing Horse) by Antonio Duma, it would turn some heads.
Vincent.

[Nino]

Vincent,

Yes, i totally agree with your statements!
It upsets me to hear comments dis-respecting italian aces!

Can you give me some details on this (Cavallino rampante) and other publications on the 202 & 205 as well as any books of interest on flight sorties of italian aces!

I have bought what i can in English, however there is not much material, as you say!

I have the Osprey book on Italian aces of WW2, i got the wings of italy (pictorial type book) and the ANR markings and camo (great book). However, when it comes to actual flight combat sortie material,..????

Your assistance is greatly appreciated.

Actually the interest in reading goes hand in hand with building models as well! I get great pleasure in researching a particular ace or event and putting it into a diorama. I got Vince to build a C.202 Folgore (Mid 1942, Africa) (Mount of Teresio Martinolli, Markings 73-4) some time ago! He did a fantastic job....and at some stage i will finish my diorama base and add a perspex case to keep the dust off incl a plaque about the aces combat history! I got some Jaguar Italian pilot figures too...!
You would have seen pics of it in the gallery! I know want to start building a whole range of italian ww2 and even ww1 air-craft. I have accumulated a range of kits...mainly hasegawa in 1/48....but having built many kits, i have never used an air-brush...The only drawback i have is time. My 2 sons Giovanni and Marco keep my wife and i very busy...! I am hoping people like yourself will be able to assist me when it comes to doing my projects...! I like to be a perfectionist...

Having this type of memorabilia in the house will hopefully interest my boys when they are older, and i hope they will also share my passion for italian military history...!

[Vincent Biondi]

Hello Antonio,
The book by Antonio Duma, "Quelli del Cavallino Rampante" was printed back in 1981 and is hard to find, unless you can get it from a used book store on line.
However, there is an excellent Aviation book store in Italy called La Bancarella Aeronautica.
Here is the web site: http://www.bancaero.it/

They might be able to help you find the book. If not, they have other good books. I just ordered two of them that are newly issued by an author named G. Bianchi and the books (Italian language) are entitled:
I Giovani Assi (The Young Aces) and I Ragazzi del Gruppo Buscaglia (The Boys of Buscaglia's Group). Both books are new and have to do with young Regia Aeronautica Aces and the other about the famous torpedo Squadron of Carlo Buscaglia.
The site is both in English and Italian and they have a wide variety Italian Aviation books as well as publications in English. The people that run the store are very knowledgable and helpful, you can email them with any questions that you have.
Hope that this helps you.
Take care,
Vincent.
PS: Can't wait to see your Diorama!

[Nino]

Vincent,

much appreciated! I will check it out!

As for the diorama...yeh it should look great when it is finished....

[jack48]

Vincent

I had no idea that my humble post would generate such lively discussion. In WWII my uncle Tony was a ground crewman for the 8th Airforce servicing P-47's mostly and my wife's uncle Richard was a B-29 gunner in the 20th Airforce. In fact Richard's B-29 "Miss America '62" from the 6th Bombardment Group survives and was restored in the 1990's and is on display at Travis AFB San Francisco. I’ve heard war stories from these guys all of my life to this day. We know all about the double standards.

Look at Gentile's career, Americans of Italian descent went through the same routine. Look what happened - you have guys like my uncle - who should have been flying the 47 not fixing it - or guys like Paul Fontana of the USMC - Italian born - ends up being the top man in Marine Corps Aviation, etc. etc. As for the gentlemen who served in the RA and ANR, well it is often said, "history is written by the winners." One wonders what defines a winner nowadays.

Hence, I developed a liking for revisionist history. It may be coming late but it is a welcome sequence of events that someone like you as well as other enthusiasts do their due diligence in an ongoing effort to set the record straight.

Sometimes that means looking at the opponents’ information on losses as well as the RA records on scoring. When properly done - research and development leads to an end result with everyone winning because what could be more gratifying than the truth. All WWII combatants may have used different methods of maintaining records of their pilots’ exploits. Italy seems to have chosen a path of discretion. It is not as though they had an option to compare notes with the "allies" and/or opponents for purposes of complying with some sort of standard.

Unfortunately, propaganda is as much of an effective and lingering weapon of war as the atomic bomb - no less destructive and no less despicable. Should either of these be considered mistakes or regrets or merely a tool for winning is anybody's guess. It could be argued that the most powerful weapon of warfare these days is information. And so it is with the internet in general and this blog in particular especially when the documentation supports the facts as in this particular issue of RA and ANR aviators.

Thanks Vince.

[Vincent Biondi]

Hi Jack,
Thanks for the kind words.
I looked up Paul Fontana on a Marine web site.
He was born in Lucca Italy, but his family returned to the States and he went on to have a great career in the USMC during WW2 were he reached Ace status as well as the commanding officer of VMF 112.
Vincent.
PS: Is you Uncle Tony still around?
I'm sure that he has some very interesting tales about the P47 Jug!

[jack48]

Nothing is more gratifying than getting the facts straight and particularly the active/positive approach as exhibited by Vincent and Nino IMO. So, thank you gentlemen for being gentlemen.

As for the ongoing numbers game - I had mentioned previously my uncle in the 8th AAF (that I have spoken to very recently Vince). We had a discussion about the Spitfire (remembering that Eagle Squadrons were absorbed into the 8th). He mentioned something about the USA devising and supplying jigs to England for mass production of certain marks of the Spitfire.

My understanding is that it took far more man hours to produce a MC-202/205 than the average WWII single inline engine fighter including Spitfires. However, with the inevitable discussion about numbers of available aircraft particularly from 1942 on when America enters in force the equations change drastically. The arsenal of democracy was not only exporting weapons, it was exporting technology, methods and know-how.

The competition between the thoroughbreds Macchi and Supermarine carried forward from the races to combat in the air yet while Macchi remained true to it's heritage - is it fair to say that the same is true for Supermarine when production techniques and values are factored? Germany IMO created an underground network of "mom and pop shops" some of which apparently exist to this day - to produce FW-190's and the like and reduce the risks from strategic bombardment. Italy was not as fortunate and one might argue - not as foresighted. Hence, Lucchini and his colleagues numbers are all the more impressive.

A lot of us really welcome the breath of fresh air that comes with getting the numbers right.